Men’s “token torturers” in feminist spaces

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

"Where men can?t reach women because the space is women-only, these women, most of whom are deeply damaged, serve as the perfect Trojan horses and cannon fodder for the destruction of feminist spaces. To use Mary Daly?s term, they are men?s ?token torturers? in feminist spaces, doing men?s dirty work of demolishing women?s capacity for resistance.[18]

In most cases, pseudo-feminist (masculinist) practices or ideologies are the perfect terrain for such abusive behaviours because they give both the sense of legitimacy and individual rationalisation for them. Token torturers within feminist or women-only spaces almost always justify their continual acts of women-bashing with male-identified ideologies disguised as feminism, and some may be more obvious than others. This is particularly true for pro-prostitution positions, BDSM practices, pseudo anti-racism, intersectionality, male-centric anti-capitalism or leftism, focus on male institutions or law, queer theory, butch-fem ideology, radical lesbianism, and the ?phobia? ideologies (Islamophobia, etc.)."

-- Féministe radicale francophon

Pointing out anti women terms is winding up?

Okay, whatever.

True. And if we stifle the voices of those who are on the receiving end of oppression within the group as a result of specific characteristics such as race, religion or class we will, again, lose collectivity and force and power.

Yes, I agree.

Which is what makes it really hard.

We live in a racist, classist, etc society and we women/feminists are naturally socialized by that even if we try to resist/be aware.

Which is what I think is the common factor with the other items on the list. Our socialisation. Which leads us right back to the dominance/submission binary hierarchy - I think if we explore all the items on the list, we will likely find that that is the common theme running through them. Plus we are socialised to normalise, even fetishize, that dominance/submission dynamic, and so it can sneak into feminism, disguised as being woman centred, without us necessarily detecting the underlying misogyny.

My last post was snippy and I've asked for it to be deleted. Sorry.

Erm no eats, it is not anti feminist it might be anti your version of feminist. Many women who identify themselves as feminists in RL are very happy using the term, practicing intersectionality, setting up their work and their personal life's to be intersectional. But ok lets ignore them and look at something else.

As I said earlier this is a phrase and a practice much in favour with a wide range of civil society in scotland ast the moment. If I have found anything out as a community worker it is never to try and oppose a growing trend, using it and adapting it isd far more productive and successful. If you want it to be dropped then do not use it, if you want it to be dropped on MN carry on your campaign. in rl though you have already been bypassed by events and practice. Let me stop the hissy fitters in their tracks though by saying AGAIN I am not fully comfortable with intersectional work but the principles of all being equal are at least better than the current setting one group against another that politicians seek to do. As a disabled person I am not scared of losing power or having my identity reduced, I am looking forward to not having to explain why I am as valuable and have the same rights as others.

The philosophy all being equal usually means in practice that womens oppression is ignored or minimised.

And I am quite happy to oppose a growing trend if that trend is wrong. For example thinking that someone can change sex. Group think never helps the oppressed.

"Aye you keep telling yourself that hen while we just get on around you." As my mother would have said.

Is it me and my privledge or do some people just want to argue for the sake of it? Sharing ideas and thoughts is good, it is meant to help see each others point of view but more and more it seem like the point of threads is just to pick a fight with no intention to accept that other people have a legitimate point of view.

Leith I am discussing a variety of subjects here. No I dont think everyone's viewpoint is legitimate. Just as some dont think my view point is legitimate.

The philosophy all being equal usually means in practice that womens oppression is ignored or minimised.

I have found that often too EBAL.

It is that 'Women! back of the queue!' thing.

Actually I am not that dismissive Eats and hadn't dismissed your opinion. I'm all ears, I might learn something If you don't think others are entitled to an opinion why do you think yours is worthy of consideration?

Anyway, KRITIQ you make more sense the more I read. I am reading Firestone again after many years. I have just covered the chapter on the sexism of the family man which goes into the idea of women of colour being seen as exotic. She discusses this using Eldritch Cleaver's writing!

Anyway male centric anti-capitalism??? has a joined up ready made analysis, women chose to break away from the left and organise themselves and this has in no way undermined that theory. Radicals have failed to come up with their own. They have simply pointed the finger and said Marx didn't pay enough attention to women and their economic role in society, not something I agree with.

I am not a feminist, but think of myself as a realist, if I must have an" ist " label. But in my later life as a widow, I have been subjected to insulting talking down to by especially older men, in that they cannot be told anything by a woman as their male pride cannot cope with that. They must be the ones telling me. The times I've been told " Now listen to me", Don't worry about it, HE/I know (s) what he is doing", " There's nothing wrong, it'll be fine" etc, and know what, I and other women are 99.9% right. And they have to argue and contradict if you dare have an opinion/knowledge about something that was usually a male domain. My sister-in-law complains to me about my brother doing that - he is a scientist !!!! The words that come to mind are Male Chauvanist. They don't do it other men. Luckily my DH was not like that at all, but I lost him. Of course, not all men are like that, but those that do, never apologise or can admit they have done anything wrong - that male pride again

Digerd - That is rough. And if you ever point out to men like this what they are doing, they usually think you are imagining it.

I find a good rule of thumb when deciding if a man is being sexist is - would you say that/talk like that to a man. If the answer is no, then they are being sexist.