In this day and age! A thread for unbelievably obvious examples of sexism.

[blackcurrants]

A thread for "I can't believe that just happened to me! In this day and age!"

Yesterday we spent about 40 minutes in a Toyota dealership, looking to spend about $10k on a used car. The salesman only asked DH's name, only wrote down DH's number, and only talked to DH about the cars available. DH kept referring to me, asking my opinion, and generally looking uncomfortable. Eventually DH snatched back his license from the salesman and said "No, I don't think so. Let's go." And as I turned I added "Joe? Thank you for your help today. I work in sales and I wanted you to know that since I walked in here you haven't asked me a single question, or addressed me directly even once. At one point you walked away from me, talking to my husband about the next car you were showing us, so that I couldn't hear what you said. I just want you to know that I earn more than my husband (actually not yet true, but soon will be!), I know more about cars than my husband (v.true), and you acted like I didn't exist. Which is why we're leaving."

When I got into our car, DH was cheering. We drove 5 miles away and bought a nissan.

As we were doing the dishes last night, talking about this, DH said "I do hope you tell Mumsnet about it." he knows me so well.

Although upthread I gave a recent example of sexism that happened to me, I must say that as I have got older (and latterly pretty ancient) it happens less and less.

I'm not sure whether that is because people are getting less sexist, they are a bit more respectful to older women or I am quicker and more confident now to give off "don't mess about with me" vibes.

vezzie I enjoyed reading your post.

Let's not lose touch with reality. This is an anonymous internet forum discussing issues which affect women and I have no intention of becoming angry with something somebody posts. I may not agree with certain points of view, and sometimes will chose to debate the issue but I am always aware that people are hiding behind an internet identity.

Debating face to face is very different.

grimbletart - My thoughts and experiences too.

HiHowAreYou - my junior school self would have joined.
and so would the other 5 girls in my class.
we did that a lot "i need some strong boys to help move tables" we would all jump up and say that was sexist and offer our help.

Thanks florencejon

"Let's not lose touch with reality"

• how did I manage to write something that long and forget the word "patronising"?

Great post, Vezzie.

Great post vezzie

What I find frustrating is that gaps in knowledge widen because of this tendency to talk over women and look to men for advice.

Florence I think that you try to avoid giving people the opportunity to say "calm down dear" is evidence of what a successful silencing tactic the popular image of the angry feminist is.

nickeldaisical: it was something similar that made me a feminist at the ripe old age of 5 in primary school. In PE the teacher would say "now would the boys please move the benches?".

On one occasion I piped up protesting that I was completely capable of moving a bench and was told that the boys were asked because boys were strong. FFS - we were 5 year olds, when there is no difference in strength, and we were taking a subject that was supposed to make us all stronger and fitter.

Of course I did not recognise my road to Damascus formally as feminism then - just that I was being told something untrue, unfair, unjust and to be challenged on every occasion. It's why I worked on my strength after that and why I made sure my daughters did. Consequently we are all quite a lot stronger than many men we know. No hanging around looking helpless in among female grimbles.

I know that males are, on average, stronger than females but I wonder how many females are unnecessarily physically enfeebled because they buy into this mantra as little ones. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy (sad)

Hi messy - How many threads in the FWR end up as bun fights? I'm certainly not silent as can be seen by the huge number of posts which I've made on my day off and I do enjoy debating, but think it is more productive when it remains civil.

I actually subscribe to the popular feminist image of the 'angry feminist' which was debated on another thread recently, hence, I use the term 'equalist'.

As we are all fighting for the same equality, why don't posters put forward their argument demonstrating that I have made an error of judgement in deciding to make a conscious choice for the word I use describing being a campaigner for women's rights?

Hi Florence what is cOnfusing me about your posts is that no one on this thread is describing "angry" behaviour - no one swore at the car salesperson or shouted at the women asking for a man to fix a projector.

Thanks for your invitation but I am happy self defining as a feminist and am not bothered if you associate that word with "angry". If you wish to self define as equalist, go ahead.

grimble "I know that males are, on average, stronger than females but I wonder how many females are unnecessarily physically enfeebled because they buy into this mantra as little ones. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy (sad)"

You're right. It is sad, which is why I'm a very strong believer in the importance of sport for females. I hope that the Olympic spirit continues long after the games.

My example relates to something a woman said to me. I posted on here at the time but was roundly told it wasn't sexist. Regardless it still rankles

I was interviewed for a senior position. The company had been interviewing all day. When I left I was escorted to the lifts by one of the directors. Whilst we were waiting a female employee approached, introduce herself and same if I was the directors wife.

The assumption that a woman couldn't possibly be attending for a board position really grated

Male colleague and I leaving the building separately, him six or seven paces ahead of me. Both dressed in suits. He says to the security man "goodnight"
The man says smartly "Goodnight sir"
I pass, I smile and say "goodnight"
The man snorts and says "Er - yeah. Goodnight love"

:o Vezzie and Orangekipper - I too think it's absolutely tragic that attitudes don't appear to have moved on since whenever it was that Orange did martial arts as a child.

I am slightly flabbergasted that florence thinks it's a triumph/opportunity for my SEVEN YEAR OLD to educate a grown man, in 2012 out of his ignorant assumptions.

She won't be going to that martial arts class, I shall find another. What if, heaven forfend, she was a bit shit at it? I don't want to give the sexist tosser an opportunity to have his predjudices reinforced, tbh.

There was a woman in her 40's (same age as me) in my office who invariably, when a computer-related issue arose first thing in the morning (I worked odd hours, she was the office manager it was part of her job to sort such stuff out) would look around helplessly and go 'ooh, we'll wait for one of the boys to come in and ask them' - said boys being also in their thirties and forties. I gave up asking her in the end and found out the answers to such taxing questions as 'do you have a USB cable spare' myself...

^My friends FIL won't close the curtains at home. He says it's "woman's work".*
That means he can't do it Kendodd. The correct response was "oh you mean it's too difficult for a man"

up thread about helping any gender.. I will admit when I see an older gentleman struggling with bags or doors etc.. I am slightly slower to help. Not because I don't know he needs the help but I am aware that by me a female helping him.. I might embarrass him

IdCalU: that rings a bell with me. Many years ago we were moving house; an uncle offered to help. Ta. Much appreciated. Except that he would insist on taking 'heavy' stuff off me e.g. full drawers. Then he puffed and faffed about as it was clearly a struggle (he was 20 years older than me). I could have done the job in half the time and half the grunting and other effort noises.

But I could not bring myself to take the heavy stuff off him - not because he had offered to help, but because I didn't want to 'demasculinise' him.

I was torn between irritation at his sexist "I'll lift that - it's too heavy for you" and some innate courtesy that meant I was unwilling to show him up as, well, pretty feeble really. Had it been another (older) woman I would not have hesitated.

And that's how we women - even the most feminist of us - can feed the "you Tarzan, me Jane" mythology

I'm not sure what 'area' of feminism I fall under and I know the opinions I hold are more 'watered down' than many of those who post in this section. However, I do enjoy lurking here, challenging my assumptions and reminding myself how far we have come and how far we still have to go.

The most obvious and saddening examples of sexism I have come across tend to be those perpetuated by other women. In brief; I have taken a 2 year career break to look after our children full time whilst my DH works away during the week. I will return to work, part time and self employed when the children are in school next September. (The plan is that DH will then be able to go part time too. Incidentally, we did this in reverse for 7 months when DS was a baby so it works both ways). I was self employed and earning a pretty good wage before I stopped work and foolishly imagined that everyone would assume that's what I'd return to. Depressingly however, women from my husband's side of the family now seem to assume I will now aspire to a "nice little job" earning a bit of pin money. I have had adverts for teaching assistant courses and other routes to minimum wage employment given to me along with suggestions such as "you'd be good working with children" (actually I dislike pretty much all children except my own, who are perfect and far superior to everyone else's obviously )

Thank God my DH and my own family (and, oddly considering his rather outdated views, my FIL) don't share these views, or I think I would go mad.

Yeah, Sara, I'd go with that being sexist. Unconsciously sexist, maybe, but sexist.

florence you wrote
As we are all fighting for the same equality, why don't posters put forward their argument demonstrating that I have made an error of judgement in deciding to make a conscious choice for the word I use describing being a campaigner for women's rights?

Please do that on another thread. I started this one to discuss "unbelievably obvious examples of sexism" - as per the title.
Thread-drift happens, but you're suggesting a whole other conversation, best served by a new thread.

SaraBellumHertz

Yep, I think that was a sexist assumption to make. I'm sure it wasn't intended to be sexist, but as assumptions go, it betrays the attitude that men are interviewed for board positions, and women are married to those men. Which is sexist.

I think some of our problem comes from the fact that people feel that calling something sexist is mean somehow, (rather than descriptive). It can help to make it clear that you are labelling the behaviour/action rather than the person: Eg "the salesperson's refusal to acknowledge my presence and input was sexist." not "The salesperson was sexist." - but sadly people who are feeling defensive about being called out (even by implication) don't always get the nuance.

Oh I'd like to ad a few commercials that grate on me, most o them are local so may not find youtube links. BUt this one is especially irritating.

1. Why si a grown woman who has had children trying to be the same size as a teenager who presumably not carried a baby and had her hip spread

1. Why is she wearing her daughter's jeans. This is what annoys me most about the commercial- I feel like being a mother there is someone always telling us our daughters are our "competition

And even MR AStronaut lets himself down at times.

He told me to "ask a man" to help me sort my car coolant out when I was in work the other day.

On the other hand, whenever DS sees an ironing board, he joyfully shouts: "I do th e ironing, just like Daddy!" So we're making progress.

Talking of Astronauts - we got the brochure today for the Belgian kids "holidays without their parents" thing - that my employer heavily subsidises. And dd looked past the cooking, pony riding thing and is going to Astronaut Camp where they get to build model rockets and go on all the space simulators. No-one is telling HER that women don't get to be astronauts.