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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What are your thoughts on this Andrea Dworkin quote?

66 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 09:17

I love this quote. Wondered what women here thought about it?

""It is not in becoming a whore that a woman becomes an outlaw in this man's world; it is in the possession of herself, the ownership and effective control of her own body, her seperateness and distinctness, the integrity of her body as hers, not his.

Prostitution may be against the written law, but no prostitute has defied the prerogatives or power of men as a class through prostitution. No prostitute provides any model for freedom or action in a world of freedom that can be used with intelligence and integrity by a woman; the [happy hooker] model exists to entice counterfeit female sexual revolutionaries, gullible liberated girls, and to serve the men who enjoy them" ~ Andrea Dworkin, 'Right-Wing Women'"

OP posts:
JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 16:05

Julian, I think you will find that Mary Wollstonecraft was referring to women as a 'class' well before Marx. And quite likely other people too, but she's the one who springs to mind.

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:07

I want to acknowledge that the discussion was opened to women. I am not a woman. I wondered as I read through the comments, how many of the contributors here are women and how many are men. Assumingperhaps incorrectlythat some if not many are men, I address what follows particularly to them. Regardless, I hope the lengthy response that follows enriches the conversation.

The idea that gender/sex is a classed system, or that race is a classed system, or that economic position is a classed system, stems from the social/political/economic analytic work of Karl Marx. Many consider this work to be of great value in organising socially against oppression and it has been used effectively in this regard, particularly in South America. "Class" is socially existent: Marx wasn't making it up; he was analysing its origins and how to combat its oppressive and dehumanising effects on the root level.

That is what I think about when I read some of the comments above, which appear to dismiss the reality of class oppression or to greatly minimise classed existence altogether.

To those who would deny or ignore such a reality, particularlybut not onlyif you are male, I would ask each of you to consider this: oppressors, or those atop any given social-political-economic hierarchy, generally want to deny the system itself, even while we reap the benefits, advantages, privileges, power, control, and access to resources that comes with being positioned, structurally, as an oppressor.

Anyone need only look at the history of England to understand economic class power and oppression. To understand it with regards to race, just look at the history of South Africa. To understand it with regard to gender, one need only look at most Western and non-Western societies.

To imagine the places in the world where gender/sex, race, and economic class become powerful combining sources of gross exploitation and abuse, consider only the reality of sexual slavery in the world. When I consider the difference in power, control, authority, and access to resources between these two groupspoor girls of color from relatively poor countries, disenfranchised ethnic groups, or police-harassed neighborhoods, and their oppressors: white men from wealthier countries, enfranchised ethnic groups, or police-protected neighbhorhoodsI am left without a means of comprehending such horror if I toss out the reality of class-level oppression.

Class theories about economics, race, or sex alone are not adequate to understand or combat that particular global atrocity. I have not been subjected to sexual slavery, to being sold into it, to being trafficked from country to country, to being forced or coerced to please a man (in fact, many men: hundreds of men) who I don't know who is three, four, five, and six times as old as I was between the ages of six and ten. Because of this, I am mindful of the structural positions of privilege and power I occupy socially: I am not poor, I am not of color, and I am not female.

I need to understand the concept "class oppression" to make sense of what is happening there. I don't accept that the cause is simply the 'bad fortune' of the millions of girls used and abused in those ways each day and night until somehow they escape or die. If it were only bad fortune, the demographics of the abused and the abusers wouldn't be so glaringly different.

Often, especially among white men on the Left, I find that unjust and inhumane economic class and racial class systems can be acknowledged and even fought against. But for some reason, the sexual class system is ignored by those men.

A radical white feminist died recently. Her name was Shulamith Firestone. She started a few majority-white radical feminist groups in NYC. Her most famous work, The Dialectics of Sex, was among the first feminist books (1970) to describe gender as a classed system of oppression--of women by men. I recently reread the opening to the first chapter of that book:

"Sex class is so deep as to be invisible. Or it may appear as a superficial inequality, one that can be solved by merely a few reforms, or perhaps by the full integration of women into the labour force. But the reaction of the common man, woman, and child - 'That? Why you can't change that! You must be out of your mind!' - is the closest to the truth. We are talking about something every bit as deep as that."

But as this thread began referencing Dworkin, if you haven't read it yet, I found this piece of writing which relates to the one that opens this discussion: "Prostitution and Male Supremacy". Here is the link:

www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MichLawJourI.html

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:10

Thanks, LRDtheFeministDragon! I appreciate the reminder of her work!! (I don't know how to delete the first version of my comment. I made some corrections and reposted it. Sorry for the confusion to all here. If there's a moderator, I welcome them to delete the first of the two comments, and hope that others will understand that LRD is responding to my only remark here so far.)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 16:13

No trouble.

You can't delete, but you can click on 'report' (in the blue bar with your name, on the right) and ask MNHQ to please delete it 'at poster's request'. Then they'll come along and do so.

But I doubt anyone will mind, loads of people double-post by accident anyway.

I do feel it's really important to give Wollstonecraft her due. She is immensely more influential in terms of feminism than Marx, I think, and there's a certain irony, isn't there, to discussing women as a class and not discussing Mary!

(But I am biased cos I like her work Grin)

JulianReal · 13/09/2012 16:24

Thanks LRD! I did just as you suggested and hopefully the first one will get removed.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that Mary W.'s work ought not be ignored or minimised here--especially here, as you say!!! Smile I'm sorry that I was so careless, and, um, wrong, in attributing ALL class analysis of sex to ol' Marx! Especially since he was so awful about the matter of women. Blush So, folks, here's a link to her classic text, A Vindication of the Rights of Woman:

www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3420

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 17:24

EatsBrainsAndLeaves
"Feminists talk about class of men as a political class. It is men as a class who oppress women as a class. This is basic feminism leithlurker. "

Some men, most men or all men?

seeker · 13/09/2012 17:39

Men as a group. Obviously not all individual men are like this. But the structure of society puts men as a group in a position where they occupy most of the positions of power, and where the assumption is that power and control is the the preserve of the male.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 17:59

Sounds like a great tarring brush.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:01

uppercut, you know this is the feminism section, right?

Discussing gender issues is kinda ... what we do.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:14

And you think I'm discussing something else because...?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:15

You seemed surprised we were using gender as a category. I would venture to suggest it's quite common in feminist circles, you see.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 18:30

We are actually using sex as a category. And gender is a social construct i.e. masculine and feminine.

OP posts:
Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:34

Asking for the specifics of feminist theory is hardly an expression of 'surprise'. The response I got was most unsurprising.

Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:40

LRDtheFeministDragon
"You seemed surprised we were using gender as a category. I would venture to suggest it's quite common in feminist circles, you see. "

EatsBrainsAndLeaves
"We are actually using sex as a category. And gender is a social construct i.e. masculine and feminine. "

Do feminists use gender or sex categories in relation to their theories?

There seems to be some confusion on the matter.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:41

True, brains, we're using sex as a category. I think we are also using gender, though, because we are discussing the social constructs?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 18:42

What are you confused by, uppercut?

It is fairly clear, no?

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 18:48

Uppercut - sex is our biological bodies of men and women. Gender is the social construct of masculine and feminine.

Women as a sex class are oppressed by men as a sex class. Julian's post explains in more detail above what that actually means

OP posts:
Uppercut · 13/09/2012 18:57

"True, brains, we're using sex as a category. I think we are also using gender, though, because we are discussing the social constructs? "

"It is fairly clear, no? "

You can tell me once you've answered your own question! Lol.

Beachcomber · 13/09/2012 19:12

Oh FFS!

Somebody posts a really interesting quote, a incisive piece of feminist analysis - the sort of thing you could have a really explorational discussion about.

But what do we get? A bunch of men fixating on the word 'class' and claiming that women and men do not exist as distinct political classes.

Give Me A Fucking Break.

Is it a total lack of political awareness that comes from being in the privileged of the two classes, or just a desire to disrupt women from talking about their status, that this sort of entitled crap stems from? (Please don't feel the need to answer - that was a rhetorical question.)

Quote is bang on. With bells on.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 13/09/2012 19:17

Thanks beachcomber. The quote makes me think about how little ownership and effective control over our own bodies women have under patriarchy. And yet how invisible this fact is to most women.

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Beachcomber · 13/09/2012 19:22

CailinDana, you asked this question; But are there those who claim prostitution is a way of defying "the prerogatives or power of men as a class"?

I would say, yes, absolutely.

Anyone who witters on about empowerment for the women in porn or prostitution or who talks about prostitutes exploiting men/making easy money/being in control/getting one up/working as an indie/being paid to do what women are for anyway.

Or anyone who talks about 'high class call girls'/Belle de Jour/the tart with a heart/happy hookers/yadda yadda'.

i.e. lots of people - see 'illegal' thread for multi examples.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 13/09/2012 20:00

What Beach said.

Leithlurker · 13/09/2012 21:07

Far from being "fixated" beachcomber the word class is loaded to the gills with meaning and emotion. People ask for comment and thats what happens they get cooment.

I said I did not want to become anal about discussing class as I think the thread as a whole offers much more to explore in the quote than just class. So I will make my point and leave it alone so that this thread can progress to looking at other ideas and thoughts about the quote. In fact it might be worthy of a thread in it's own right to think about Class and feminism.

I would suggest that Wollstonecraft and Marx were using the word Class in entirely different ways, with some crossover to be sure but essentially to talk about different things. We all know that Marx's main interest was economic and politicle change. So in describing class he constructed the working class or the proletariat. In his goal was to allow easy accesability to the idea that only those who controlled the means of production or who had wealth were the enemy. Everyone else either directly or indirectly worked to make the rich richer. Now this as a politicle and socio economic comment was fair enough. He would have struggled to include many of the modern day politicle and economic theories in his own general theory. Indeed feminism as well as green issues pose issues. So a theory for a specific goal and of it's time.

I would argue much the same with MW and her use of the word class is much the same. Interestingly enough though she is an even more direct link to Marxs as she also wrote the same kind of vindication for men as she did for women. Her use of class though was to particularly signify that women as a sex were diffrent from their oppressors which yes were men but were also lack of education and choosing a life untroubled by critic le thought. She like Marx was writing in a particular time, and in a particular environment. Incidently her ideas about education were slightly mixed and not clear if she was advocating state education for all children or only children that come from a certain economic background.

All this is somewhat diffrent to the way class is used today, and that using class to cover an entire sex is not what either Mary or Karl intended. The use by feminists like Marx is politicle and suffers from the same deterministic, black or white faults. Men and women today have much more personal, politicle, and economic freedom than they did even 50 years ago. Social norms have changed almost to the point of being unrecognisable. We do need in all social causes to talk about who has power and who does not. However if we said that all women did not have power, then we would be ignoring the small but important minority that have the power through economic, or politicle, or social means to construct their own worlds and not be a 2nd class. However even then we would recognise that at the very top level of the world society, a small bunch of mostly men have such huge wealth and control that even a wealthy independent woman like Madonna, or Stella McCartney, or Mrs Clinton who may even one day be president of the usa, are controlled. However that would just make them the same as the vast majority of men.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 13/09/2012 21:10

Am I being thick? But why are we talking about Marx?

He didn't originate this use of the word. Sure, it has strong political connotations now, but I think it is clear Dworkin is using in in the older sense, and in a sense well established in earlier feminist writings, so why is it a problem?