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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is drag sexist?

58 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 11/09/2012 08:11

I have just been reading this interesting article on drag and wondered what others thought? Below is an extract.

www.wbez.org/blog/city-room-blog/onstagebackstage-drag-sexist

"What?s so funny about drag, anyway? Maybe it?s the simple incongruity: you can always knock ?em dead with chest hair pouring out of an evening gown?s cleavage. But this seems like a pretty thin joke on which to hang decades of amusement. Unless you think men are from Mars and women from Venus?that is, that differences in gender behavior are huge and immutable?the contrast doesn?t hold much interest. Certainly, the contrast between white performers and black characters was not enough in and of itself to make blackface funny. There had to be something else?and there was.

There was ridicule of African-Americans. ?Look how silly they are! But look how they laugh, and doesn?t that prove they?re happy in the confinement in which we?ve placed them?? Likewise, men who dress up as women and adopt stereotyped feminine behaviors are comical because of their stereotyped behavior, and the inference the audience is encouraged to draw is not that stereotypes are comical but that women are.

Just as in blackface African-Americans were shown singing, or dancing, or being foolish, or longing for the old plantation, in drag women are shown nagging, or domineering, or primping, or longing for male protection. Each form even has two insulting ?types.? Blackface offers Zip Coon (an urban dandy out of his depth) and Sambo (a shuffling rural fool), the first making fun of black people for being free and the second for being slaves. Drag presents the Glamor Girl and the Pantomime Dame, the first making fun of women for our sexuality and the second for our lack of it."

OP posts:
MySpanielHell · 11/09/2012 18:58

I don't think any man wearing women's clothes is participating in drag - mostly those men are just cross dressers. It is not the same as dressing up as a woman for the purposes of comedy performance.

AlistairSim · 11/09/2012 19:09

Do you think it is maybe to do with the intention behind it?

I have seen quite a lot of drag acts over the years and some were very funny. They seemed on the same side as women and not taking the piss.

Drag like in Little Britain seems very sneery to me.

AlistairSim · 11/09/2012 19:10

I'm sorry, I don't know why I have randomly bolded some words.

Thanks, limitedperiod. Grin

madwomanintheattic · 11/09/2012 19:11

I think I might be talking at cross purposes, I wasn't really thinking about comedy per se. The only drag shows I've been to have been singing, really.

I don't quite get that the intention is to be silly by putting on a dress (and am not absolutely sure it's accurate). The only drag artists I've known put a lot of effort into the attire, and it isn't to be silly, it's to look good on stage. Definitely to blur the lines. Not to parody women or denigrate 'woman', but almost to raise up a man to an equivalent position, so parodying 'difference' by denying it.

I was at one function with my then boss, and the drag artist was her spitting image. They posed for lots of pictures together afterwards (he pretty early heard the buzz in the audience), and I'm not sure who was more pleased by the comparison.

I don't like little Britain per se, tbh, although I find David Walliams intriguing in the way he crosses gendered expectations as an individual, not in his characters.

madwomanintheattic · 11/09/2012 19:14
namechangeguy · 11/09/2012 19:17

What about Monty Python? They did it a lot. Terry Jones as Brian's mum has me crying with laughter every time. In the same film, there was the stoning scene were men dressed as women, and women dressed as men, pretending to be men, including false beards. Are they seen as offensive or sexist? Or are feminists allowed to see it for the inspired comedy that it was?

MySpanielHell · 11/09/2012 19:25

I agree that it is the intention of it.

And I would say the same for blackface. The Black and White Minstrel Show is not the same as AliG, which is not the same as a white teenager in London who cornrows their hair and dresses in a style similar to black US rappers.

SuperB0F · 11/09/2012 19:28

I agree with those saying there's good drag and bad drag. I don't think that it HAS to be about mocking women per se, and the better-observed stuff tends to do the opposite.

TeiTetua · 11/09/2012 19:38

One of the characters in Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For cartoon enjoyed drag-kinging. Apparently it's an entertainment style that Lesbians sometimes enjoy (Wikipedia says so, so it must be true). Maybe because once you don't conform to gender expectations, the whole business just becomes funny. Or intriguing, or both.

limitedperiodonly · 11/09/2012 20:00

You're welcome AlistairSim.

Always loved your work Grin

madwomanintheattic · 11/09/2012 20:02

he's a very naughty boy!

Ah, had completely forgotten Monty Python. And I even forked out for Spamalot. Grin

Here we have 'walk a mile in her shoes' which raises money and awareness for those affected by VAW/ shelters etc. It is an event for male participants, where, yes, they don high heeled court shoes and walk the length of the town. It's very well supported, and makes a lot of money for shelters.

There are quite a lot of men who go the whole hog and wear dresses and wigs and make-up. It's interesting, I suppose their efforts at 'drag' are indeed parody, and for comedic value... And yet they are only doing it to raise awareness of male violence against women (and cash). It's done in good spirit.

limitedperiodonly · 11/09/2012 20:05

namechangeguy Can I make a suggestion? Read the thread.

A number of posters have specified the drag acts they find funny and those they find offensive.

I'm not saying we're right, but it would help as a reference point.

I likeTerry Jones in Life of Brian but some women don't.

Why not ask them why?

KRITIQ · 11/09/2012 21:29

What Super BOF said.

namechangeguy · 11/09/2012 21:53

Okay then, who doesn't like the Pythons in drag, and why? Do they conform to the OP's assertion that ' in drag women are shown nagging, or domineering, or primping, or longing for male protection. Each form even has two insulting types....Drag presents the Glamor Girl and the Pantomime Dame, the first making fun of women for our sexuality and the second for our lack of it. '

LurkingAndLearningLovesOrange · 11/09/2012 21:55

I don't like Monty Python, none of it is funny.

Runs and hides Grin

kim147 · 11/09/2012 22:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

madwomanintheattic · 11/09/2012 22:19
Thedoctrineofennis · 12/09/2012 00:23

But drag acts are very different from men playing women characters.

MP played all the main characters in their films I think (?) and therefore any proper female parts would have to be played by men.

All shakespeare characters were played by men originally I think - that wasn't drag either, it was acting.

TiggyD · 12/09/2012 00:49

Drag queens are 'comedy' women. Parodies. (lily Savage)
Female impersonators are much more realistic women. (danny LaRue, Hinge & Bracket)
Men acting as women. Often due to lack of women to play the parts. (All boy schools)
Transvestites/ Cross-dressers. Need to express feminine side via clothing. Sometime sexual or fetish element, but very frequently not. (Eddie Izzard, David Shayler)

I can get a bit uncomfortable with some drag acts. They seem to be sarcastic/bitter in their comedy. Aggressive really.

RiaOverTheRainbow · 12/09/2012 00:54

Some drag definitely makes fun of and denigrates women. It's men saying "I'm a man in a dress, don't I look ridiculous." But IME a lot more is making fun of gender expectations, saying "I'm a man in a dress, don't I look fantastic." I agree it's very much down to the intention.

limitedperiodonly · 12/09/2012 08:00

"I'm a man in a dress, don't I look fantastic."

This is what makes me uncomfortable about some reasons for drag.

There are some cross-dressers or pre or post op transsexuals who do think they are better than women, and so do the men who find them attractive.

Not better-looking than some women, not better-dressed than some women, not someone who someone else finds more attractive than a woman, but someone who is superior to a woman who has been female from birth.

It's very hostile to be a woman in their company. So on the whole I'm not.

But it's very shocking to find there is yet another group of men, apart from the ones you already knew existed, who despise women.

namechangeguy · 12/09/2012 10:00

Do they have to hate women? Can you not equally say that they merely do not find women sexually attractive, and leave it at that? Despise is a very strong feeling.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 12/09/2012 10:17

There is a difference between a man not finding women sexually attractive and despising women. You can tell the difference when with a man who despises women

OP posts:
limitedperiodonly · 12/09/2012 10:39

I'm talking about the views of a particular group of people which is why I used italics for the word 'some' and bolding for the word 'do'.

Sometimes you can only spot the difference between the men who see women as equal human beings and those who pretend to like us for appearance's sake, when the second group don't notice or care that you're watching and listening.

I've overheard too many conversations about women's repellent bodies to remain unwary around certain groups of men or certain things - drag is one of them - until I can trust them.

What kicked it off for me was 20 years ago listening to two gay men talking about straight sex and one of them saying in disgust that 'women can never get themselves clean.'

I imagine he didn't indulge in anal sex.

I've worked and socialised with a lot of gay men and some, not all, of them are not very nice about women when they don't think anyone of any importance is listening.

It's not just misogynists who do it. All sorts of people who harbour hatred and fear of people who are different do it too.

kim147 · 12/09/2012 12:13

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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