Shaving and all of that - new lows

[rosabud]

I know we debate this a lot and, like a lot of women, I really hate shaving and the concept behind it but do give in to fashion and shave various bits when I feel it matters............so at what point does it REALLY matter because, very depressingly, there is a thread over in the childbirth section from a woman who feels she needs to shave around her vagina before giving birth as it may look horrible for the midwife! Is that equally as depressing as me giving into fashion when I am on the beach / preparing for an intimate evening with partner - or is it a depressing new low?

rosabud I am not missing the point. I just have a different take on it to you.

There is much more social pressure to dye your hair if you have any grey, or if you have even a few strands, as it is not youthful. Very few women don't give in to that societal pressure. Also some younger women feel they have to make a statement about their own individuality by having it all sorts of shades, to be different. Men dye their hair to look fashionable, or because they want to get on in work and not look older too.

Also, with tattoos, there is a great deal of social pressure among certain groups to have the names of their children/ birthdates / family names on their wrists or backs and I know of many women who celebrate the birth of their children with new tattoos. Yes, after the birth, as it would be dangerous in terms of blood poisoning before it. Tattoos are now moving into majority, not minority interest. Teenagers are starting to feel obliged to have them, as most of their peer group have them. I know many parents with tattoos who have teenagers who want tattoos too, and just as many parents who despair because their teenagers have had a tattoo behind their parents' back. That is genuine societal pressure.

Before birth, the woman was probably trying to control all the variables, as she could not control everything that was going to go on in the delivery suite.

Part of that would be packing her bag, getting all the stuff together she wanted to have and feeling comfortable in her own skin. I bet she probably thought to get a haircut too as she knew she wouldn't be going to the hairdressers for some time.

I don't think that it would have been the first time the woman would have trimmed her pubic hair, I suspect she was making a comment about it not having been looked at recently due to her enormous bump being in the way. I don't know as I didn't read the post, but nearly everyone I know that has had a baby has trimmed their pubes before birth, some even getting their mothers or partners to help them. Not because any of us found it dirty or shameful or because we hate our bodies either.

Thanks rosabud. I agree - the fact that folks are thinking about whether they might be harshly judged for not shaving in itself does show just how normalised the practice has become, how if you don't do it and would never consider doing it, it still niggles in the back of the mind.

Greenhill, I'm trying, but I'm not "getting" your pitch for this just being a choice, and actually a positive choice for women. For starters, it IS a gendered issue. Waxing and shaving of male genitals hasn't become as mainstream as that for women, and you'd never hear either men or women describing men who didn't shave or wax as dirty, disgusting or repulsive. Women who don't DO get this. I work with young girls who haven't even started growing pubic hair, but already they are picking up that their genitals will be considered ugly or shameful (and by extension they will be) if they don't wax or shave. That makes me feel deeply sad every time I hear it (along with usually a whole litany of things they have to change about their bodies in order to be acceptable by their peers, let alone every stand the chance of getting a boyfriend.)

One might also argue that women are under more pressure than men to cover their grey hair, so that is also a gendered expectation. Surely you recognise that women get far more criticism for their appearance if they look natural than men do - the old, "she's letting herself go," comments.

I get that you are saying that women you know don't shave or trim because they feel dirty or shameful or they hate their own bodies. However, I hear many women say they do it because they believe it is/feel's cleaner (implying if they don't, it's dirty.) In popular culture, we see women celebrities ripped to shreds for having a bit of body hair exposed (e.g. Julia Roberts, Pixie Lott) and nasty comments about women who don't shave or wax are pretty common parlance. Imo, it's not that they feel ashamed of having pubic hair or hate their bodies, but they don't want to be subjected to nasty pronouncements about their hygiene, appearance or level of femininity, so they conform.

Back peddling here, but where in the post does it say that she thinks her hair is "dirty and disgusting".
I've not seen the original thread, this is a thread about a thread.
Aren't you putting negative comments about women's genitals to make your point? In that case, you are assuming that women think negatively of their own genitals.

I didn't read the other thread either but greenhill you have implied that people who don't remove hair are sweaty slobs on this thread.

Hideous article about Pixie Lott and Julia Roberts here

The idea that there isn't societal pressure on women to conform to hairlessness is ridiculous.

What a horrible article

plenty that wasn't my intention, it was supposed to be rhetorical based on my immediate experience. Yes, there are always articles that belittle women too. And women tend to be criticised more than men, in general, and in particular. Societal pressure is a tough one. But please don't call my point of view ridiculous.

kritiq I don't have any day-to-day dealings with pre-teens or teenagers, so can understand your concern, based on the reasons you have stated.

I removed my leg hair as soon as it appeared as a pre-teen and other hair as it arrived. But got bored of it/ maybe more accepting of my own bodily changes once I'd had a chance to process them. As did my DM, she told me later, as did my friends when questioned in later years. I did not speak of it or show it, at the time. I was only able to ask of other women's experiences when I was at university.
Maybe these children within your professional experience, are just vocalising what others have always felt and experienced.

You are very lucky to have had your feminist credentials switched on at such an early age. You have probably been able to use your time much more profitably as you've not had to do things that others do, as you've been strong minded enough to dismiss them as unnecessary and negative time wasters.

I don't know where to begin with that awful article!! From "forgotten to have a shower"...so a woman who has armpt hair clearly cannot have been near a shower then?..... to the negative words "spewing"/ "turned completely off" / "disaster"..........to the patronising, infatilising language such as that these women should "learn their lesson" and "every girl knows the cardinal rules" (CARDINAL - no pressure there then!!)......to the final, horrible judgement that we can almost forgive Julia as her defence was that it was to please her boyfirend (although the article would like to imply that really he is a rather odd kind of boyfriend whith weird sexual tastes, it's a "turn-on" rather than simply something he likes, so what is a decent girl doing with a guy like that?) whereas Pixie's defence that she simply forgot and may have other important things to do other than waxing is clearly ridiculous.

Green, your argument that getting a tattoo affords equal pressure to women shaving is nonsence. That is peer pressure to be fashionalbe but those who decide not to give in and remain without tattoos are not derided and judged. Those women who do not shave ARE derided and judged as can clearly be seen from this article. The women who are shaving their pubic hair before giving birth are not giving into to a fashion....they are worried about being judged and derided by health professionals.

It's only reading on here about shaving before smear test/childbirth that has had me a bit worried about what the health professionals might think of me not bothering

I honestly don't think they will give a crap. If they weren't prepared to see hairy women, they wouldn't have become a healthcare professional looking after women & babies, would they!

Buggered if I am going to feel pressured by anyone to shave when/where I don't want to. No one sees it anyway, so I could give a crap what they think.

I live in Australia & barely shave my legs/pits & don't even go there with my pubic hair. I don't get to feeling like a dirty smelly slob at all. I don't actually think it makes that much difference, after all, the hair is there for a reason.

I can honestly say that no one has mentioned my lack of shaving, I have had 2 sections & have been sterilised & no one made a comment or flinched an eyelid. BECAUSE IT IS PERFECTLY NORMAL TO HAVE PUBIC HAIR SO IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY SURPRISE HEALTH CARE WORKERS WHEN THEY REALISE YOU HAVE IT. (Caps on purpose)

I do not shave my legs or armpits and my pubic hair is also left alone.

I have given birth to three children, in Greece, where women tend to be much more groomed than in the UK.

Surprise surprise, none of the health care professionals were interested in how much body hair I had. No comments were made, and whatever they may have thought they kept it to themselves. And I frankly don't care what they may have thought. Actually, they were more interested in practising their English with me, when they weren't busy with my care!

And when my ds2 was born, I am sure they gave no thought to my pubic hair - they were too busy trying to save his life.

Being derided and judged by the Metro (same publisher as the misogynistic and misanthropic Daily Mail) is not the same as assuming that EVERYONE, even health care professionals, is/ are deriding or judging you for your grooming choices. I agree professionals probably don't bad an eyelid. If they do, they have either no social graces or are not concentrating on the job in hand!

The great thing about body hair is that it always grows back (!) so when the trivial fashion pendulum swings to something else, then grooming can change or not, as that person deems fit.

Tattoos are permanent so a bad choice of design made at 18 cannot be rectified without laser surgery. I was using it as an example of a bad fashion choice with long term consequences, often made under some form of peer pressure, so I don't think it was "nonsense".

That should read "bat an eyelid"

You know what REALLY bothers me about this thread?

Is that people are more people here bothered about the fact that women are worrying about their pubic hair whilst giving birth, than the fact that there are currently backwards moves about women's rights and choice whilst giving birth which will put lives at risk.

But there you go.

classic 'but what about the X' stuff, Hmm - we are capable of multi-tasking, you know. I can worry about the terrible backwards moves in all kinds of things, I'm dead clever, me.

Saying "This is too trivial for feminism, feminism should be doing X" is a bit daft. Start a thread on the stuff you want to talk about, invite people to talk, incite activism, whatever you fancy. But "you shouldn't be talking about x, you should be talking about whatever I deem appropriate for you to talk about" ... well .... sod that.

I think there is a clear feminist argument that body-modification, specifically of the genital area, specifically only in women, is indicative of a wider social movement away from feminism and towards women being 'not good enough' unless they peel, pluck, wax, shave, dye, anoint, etc. If a bunch of women are walking around hating their hairy vaginas and worrying that other people might hate them too, I think it's a worthwhile conversation to have from a feminist perspective.

Even while girl-children are bring killed at birth in India, yes. I can care about and agitate for more than one thing at a time, yknow.

Threads about shaving/waxing pre-childbirth pop up on here from time to time. There were some a few years ago when I was about to give birth. At least one of them had more than one person on the thread claiming to be a HCP (I think a midwife but I could be wrong) saying that she did judge women who were hairy and that the HCPs she worked with made comments about women who did not groom.

To be honest, I was a bit freaked out by it at the time, being older and not of the "all off" persuasion. You have enough to worry about in childbirth without worrying about what the midwives will think of your grooming or lack of it.

I hate to think that my little girl is probably going to grow up thinking that unshaven women are dirty and unpleasant and that waxing her bikini area is going to be a vital part of her life. It is all rather depressing and I do hope the culture changes before she grows up.

I work in women's health, in a surgical area and can honestly say that the team of over thirty members of staff that I work with have never gossiped/discussed the amount of pubic hair a patient has! They are too busy saving their lives and and helping them recuperate from surgery to be remotely interested in that, in my eyes it would be totally unprofessional to gossip in the staff room about a patient's vagina or pubic hair! when all said and done most women look pretty much the same down there.

I don't really care to be honest about other peoples hair.

I shave my legs, under arms and bikini area.

I did so up until the day I gave birth.

I do this because this is what I feel most comfortable with.

I will NEVER and I say this with great confidence - give up shaving / removing my hair. (until I am old an incapable that it unless I can bribe my child to shave my legs )

I don't like having hair in those places and would not expect my husband to want be intimate with me if I looked like an ewok.

Although of course he doesn't care about a bit of leg hair - the thought of having proper hair growth on legs etc makes me gag.

But that is me. I'm not up for the whole 'waxing it ALL off thing' that seems to be popular - I just don't like the idea. Personal preference.

I was under the impression that shaving/waxing actually increases the risk of infection - and that's why they tend to trim any hairy bits before surgery rather than shaving these days.

Perhaps this is an angle that feminist midwives could work on - that really you shouldn't be doing anything, because if the worst happens and you need surgery/episiotomy/stitching you have a lower risk of infection if you haven't shaved?

It's depressing to think that women are shaving / waxing pre-birth because they're scared of being judged if they don't.

I didn't touch my pubic hair before giving birth, and I didn't get a single look or comment from any of the medical staff about it. If they cared at all about it, they didn't let me know. I'm sure that any midwife or obstetrician will have seen plenty of hairy vaginas.

bubalou I don't like having hair in those places and would not expect my husband to want be intimate with me if I looked like an ewok.

So does your husband shave as well then? If not,why not, given that both sexes naturally have body hair?

(I do shave my armpits and legs because I love the feeling of smooth skin - on men as well as women) so it is not that I am anti-shaving if that is what a person wants. But I don't understand a man wanting a woman to shave if he is not prepared to do so himself and I don't understand a woman disliking hair on herself but liking it on a man given that both sexes are naturally hairy.

Sounds like the old double standard to me.

grimbletart

I knew someone would reply something like this.

My husband does shave, he shaves his face - I don't really like spikes and he keeps his man area 'trimmed & neat'.

This isn't about my DH having double standards because he doesn't. I however can appreciate a women who is attractive - I would not find necessarily find her so attractive if she had really hairy legs.

Like I said it's personal taste. I don't care if everyone else insisted on looking like cousin it - I will still be shaving.

Not brave enough to have a wax though

susiedaisy, glad to hear it and that is what I would have assumed, to be honest. Nevertheless, I do recall someone claiming on here that surgical/nursing staff did comment and joke amongst themselves about women who were not waxed/shaved to a greater or lesser extent. Obviously, they were only talking about those they worked with, but still... Very unprofessional and quite depressing if it was true.

Ick, ick, ick.

It's up to anyone what they do with their bits, shave or not shave.

I strongly suspect some of this comes from porn. I have seen porn at stag do's and so on. If the smallish sample I've seen is anything to go by, women are emaciated, long legged, balloon breasted, prepubescents. They all also seem to walk in 9" heels. (and no for the avoidance of doubt, no matter what gymnastics they do, they are not at all attractive or arousing). I like porn written, as the pictures are better.

While I think the hairless look probably is porn related, the general desire for women not to look like women is fed by the bloody awful fashion mags, run by people who hate women.

I think I saw that Marilyn Monroe would be considered a plus size model? If women's fashion magazines push this tripe, and women believe it, then I'm unsurprised that some men do.

DW shaves her legs and armpits, because she wants to; I've considered getting my back and shoulders waxed. The only other thing I'd consider shaving is my head.

bubalou "if I looked like an ewok"

how polite of you. So women who don't remove their pubic hair look like ewoks now then

Shave if you want to, but there is no call for you to be rude about those of us who choose not to.

bybalou

I wasn't talking about faces as I take it you don't shave your face as most women don't grow hair on their faces. I was talking about the bits where both men and women are naturally hairy e.g armpits, genital area. That's what I was referring to by double standards. Men can grow forests under their arms or round their man bits and that's apparently OK, but there is a social expectation on women who are also hairy in those areas to shave and for a woman to say, as you did, that you would not expect your husband to be intimate with you if you were hairy. That is the double standard I was talking about (unless of course you do have a beard and moustache)

bubalou

To say your decision to shave is personal choice and then to equate not shaving with failrly extreme notions such as "ewok" - implying that women who don't shave are some sort of unsightly hairy creatures- and "makes me gag" and "would not expect my partner to be intimate with me" and "looking like Cousin It" rather suggests there is something more extreme than personal choice going on here. You could have simply said, "I don't like it" or "I don't think it looks attractive." Instead your language suggests that derision, judgement and a sense of disgust and uncleaniness, the very things some of us have been arguing that this issue promotes, are actually behind your decision. So thanks for proving a point there.

On the subject of men shaving their bits and pieces, although the issue doesn't really belong on a thread like this as it hasn't reached that level of unaccepatablility for them to be hairy that it has with women, I still find it quite sad that they feel the need. The power of advertisers/ fashion media etc to make us all feel that are bodies are inadequate and need to be changed does not become OK just because it starts happening to men too.