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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

interesting perspective on abortion

43 replies

solidgoldbrass · 16/08/2012 02:42

here
(I'm going to bed in a minute so will have to contineu any discussion in the morning)
I've occaisonally said, because I do believe, that if abortion had not been illegal when I was conceived I probably wouldn't have been born. And I don't think it would have been such a bad thing if I hadn't - I would understand why my biomother chose to terminate her pregnancy. it's not that I don't want to be alive; I was adopted and brought up by my lovely parents and I have a nice life. But it might have been better for her to abort and get on with her life.

OP posts:
summerflower · 16/08/2012 10:44

I also read this article, and thought the author makes an interesting point and an important counter-narrative to the recovered foetus memory nonsense.

However, and I risk repeating what I argued on the other recent abortion thread, I think the answer to this is not 'it would have been better if my mother had had an abortion', but 'it would have been better if my mother had not suffered domestic violence, not been raped and had recieved the support she needed; and in turn that her mother had recieved the support she needed (as her mother's mother committed suicide)'.

This can easily be read as a generational tale feeding into neoliberal discourses about the cycle of poverty and an underclass who shouldn't be pregnant anyway as they are not fit to be mothers. The article presents a false dichotomy between abortion and a terrible childhood, without asking what society could have done to help her mother, which would have allowed her mother to be a better parent and to keep her child.

In the current climate of benefit and service cuts, I honestly think this type of argument does women no favours at all, because it promotes the idea that what a vulnerable woman needs is an abortion and not (more expensive) help.

The most telling sentence of this article is this one: 'Any positive contributions that I have made are completely offset by what it has cost society to help me overcome the disadvantages and injuries of my childhood to become a functional and contributing member of society'. It is an economic argument and a dangerous one for women who tend to be the majority sufferers from disadvantage and domestic/sexual violence.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 16/08/2012 11:04

'I think the answer to this is not 'it would have been better if my mother had had an abortion', but 'it would have been better if my mother had not suffered domestic violence, not been raped and had recieved the support she needed; and in turn that her mother had recieved the support she needed (as her mother's mother committed suicide)'.'

Absolutely, good point summer.

SigmundFraude · 16/08/2012 11:40

'Oh, some people confuse criticism of male privilege with man-hating, it's a useful stupidity-indicator.'

And vice versa. Interesting article.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 16/08/2012 11:42

A stupidity often indicates people who confuse male privilege with man-hating - true, true.

samandi · 16/08/2012 12:19

Yes, quite a sensible perspective.

seeker · 16/08/2012 12:41

"'Oh, some people confuse criticism of male privilege with man-hating, it's a useful stupidity-indicator."

Absolutely.
And not just in this context. Replace male with any other privileged group in society and the same applies.

StewieGriffinsMom · 16/08/2012 13:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alexpolismum · 16/08/2012 13:19

Interesting article.

I think she is right that abortion would have been a better option for her mother, but from reading the account of her life, I get the impression that even if she had had an abortion, it would not have solved the problem. There may have been more coerced sex, perhaps another pregnancy to abort. This woman needed much more than an abortion, she needed support, counselling, education...

I also agree with whoever it was who said that abortion should not be seen as a means to assist people out of poverty. I am pro-choice, but I do think it is a bit of a slippery slope to suggest that the poor should not have children!

CailinDana · 16/08/2012 13:46

Summerflower, you absolutely hit the nail on the head for me. The author's mother was an extremely vulnerable individual, who had suffered traumatic brain injury, domestic violence, rape and then teen pregnancy. The author seems to believe, with what seems to me to be extreme naivete that if her mother had simply had an abortion she would have miraculously gone on to suddenly be able to attend college and find "feminism or psychology or something that would have helped her overcome her childhood trauma and pick better partners." Does the author truly believe such miracles happen? That women who have barely had a chance to experience a moment of happiness or freedom go to college and are suddenly repaired forever more? Somewhere behind the author's arguments is a lurking belief that money saves you - she also mentions that had she not had a child her mother "likely would have stayed in the same socioeconomic strata as her parents and grandparents who were professors." How staying in the same socioeconomic strata as people who didn't give one shit about her would have helped her is beyond me.

As summerflower argues there seems to be an assumption that poverty and a deprived background automatically lead to bad parenting and that such bad parenting can be avoided by the deprived going to college and staying in a certain socioeconomic stratum. What she fails to realise is that abusive parents exist on all strata and at all ages. Her mother was by no means unique, and if she extends her argument, would she agree that the children of all abusive parents should wish their parents aborted them? Should potentially abusive parents (however that might be decided - no doubt in our society it would be decided by how much money you have in the bank) be encouraged/forced to abort on the understanding that it will make their lives better and that later in life once they're older and have more money they will no longer be abusive?

The author feels that in her own circumstances abortion would have been the best option for her mother. Fair enough. But trying to extrapolate any wider argument from that just doesn't work unless you start suggesting that abortion is a way of saving people from nasty parents. Nasty parents don't exist until they have children, so how do you put her ideas into action?

TeaAndHugs · 20/08/2012 09:44

I don't wish I'd been aborted, but I'm glad my mother had the option of doing so. I wouldn't want to live with the guilt of being forced on her.

Trills · 20/08/2012 22:05

That's why I think that the author's mother's situation (and hence the author's childhood) is a red herring.

I think it's perfectly possible for someone to have consensual sex in a better-than-average relationship and become pregnant and for it still to be better for them if they have an abortion, which means that there are people who had quite ordinary childhoods to be able to say "my mother would have been better off if she had aborted me".

NameGames · 20/08/2012 22:26

I didn't have a terrible childhood, and I have a happy life now. But I think my mother would most likely have been better off aborting me.

Unless you lack decency it would have to be exceptional circumstances to make you regret having your child. And my mother, who is very decent, tells me she can't regret having me. But I look at her life and grieve for the life she could have had if she'd aborted me and waited to have children until she'd found her feet and a man who would share the burdens and joy of a family.

As it is she gave up most of the best of her life to trying to make ends meet while bringing up a child on her own. She couldn't pursue the career she was starting out on when she got pregnant. And by the time she had managed to retrain for another career and started to make a bit of headway, the toil of the years bringing me up on her own left her incapacitated. Now the adventurous woman who travelled to Iran and Iraq in the 60s finds it difficult to get the train to London.

Obviously I can't know how her life would have turned out if she had had an abortion, but it seems pretty clear to me that the chance of her life being better, and of there being a different child (or more than one) who would also have had a good life are high.

Trills · 21/08/2012 08:14

Thank you NameGames - that's the sort of story I mean.

There's a difference between "I wish I hadn't been born" and "It would probably have been better for my mother if she hadn't had a baby at that time".

Brodicea · 21/08/2012 09:24

Although abortion may have been illegal it was by no means uncommon.
One reason why abortion was legalised is because of the horror of home / illegal abortions which were especially prevalent during WW2 (how do you explain your pregnancy to your husband who has been away fighting...). In the 60s when it was legalised people still remembered the bad old days - if a woman wants to terminate, she is usually desperate enough to use any means.

Glad to see whatever lisaro said is now deleted....

differentnameforthis · 21/08/2012 12:07

I wouldn't want to live with the guilt of being forced on her

Interesting perspective, TeaAndHugs And quite possibly a wrong one too. And damaging.

My mum didn't want me. Wasn't allowed to terminate me (father & brothers talked her into having me). Tried to induce a miscarriage twice that I know of. So perhaps I could say that it would have been better for her to abort me. Would have been better for me certainly. So I didn't grow up feeling unloved, feeling like I was in the way, feeling that I missed out on something that my other (all older) siblings had. Over 20yrs of not talking to her (since I left home at 18), I have NEVER felt guilt at being forced upon her...I do now :(. Thank you for that. Because for all that I try to believe it was not my fault, little parts of me do wonder why she could never show me the same love & emotion she showed my siblings. After all, how can a mother not love her baby?

Guilt at what came about has never entered my mind. It has never been an emotion that I have had to contend with. All sorts of other emotions yes, but not guilt. It was not my fault I was conceived & born. It was not my fault she couldn't love me. But no you have me questioning...was it?

Sad
differentnameforthis · 21/08/2012 12:09

That's her brothers, not mine!

Thumbwitch · 21/08/2012 12:19

differentname - if you've gone all this time without feeling any needless guilt, please don't start to feel it now! You are blameless in this - completely. Your mum is the one who should feel guilty for not loving you as she should have - for whatever reason - you, no.

differentnameforthis · 21/08/2012 12:38

Thanks Thumbwitch! You are right, of course you are & I do know that..there is still a part of me, as I said, that thinks 'if only' but I will try not to let it win.

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