Actually, we're not really worth it.

[Triffiddealer]

Listening to Women's Hour today (yes, get full marks for feminist bingo), I was intrigued by the chat regarding women in IT - which then evolved to women applying for jobs in general. Basic conclusions:

If women do not feel they meet 90% of job spec, they won't apply for the job - many men will apply if they only meet 40 - 50%

If you advertise a job at 50K per year, women don't apply. If you lower the salary, they will.

Now, I appreciate this was based on the views of the participants of Women's Hour and not a statistically valid survey - but the comments resonate with me.

Assuming this is the case (women are less confident in their abilities and less able to demand the appropriate salary than men), what do we actually do about it?

Triff, that would be really interesting (publishing salaries).

A former colleague of dh's has an equal opportunies complaint in against his previous company. And another colleague was told he was no longer welcome as he had disclosed his salary to the woman in question.

Lrd, I am the same with applications. It's making me even less confident, tbh, as even when I match the criteria exactly and know I'd be bloody good at the job, I'm still not getting interviews. So I'm left feeling if I can't get an interview where I know I stand a good chance, what on earth would I be doing applying for something I know I don't meet the criteria for?

Catch-22.

With my sensible head on, it's just a numbers game (and some other stuff like I'm a new immigrant in an itinerant town) but it doesn't do wonders for your self esteem, for sure. And for women who've been on a career break due to mat or whatever, who may already be slightly wary about their capaabilities in returning to a work environment, it compounds the issue to be told at every turn 'women are paid less' etc etc. becomes v self defeating.

The only job I've managed to get is a seasonal entry level pt temp job. I used to run an airport. I'm useful as a warning, I suppose!

In NHS clinical jobs you don't ask for any salary, it's all set and published. What you do do is decide when to apply for the next step up, I suppose.

I apply for a job if I don't meet all the "essential" criteria so long as I meet most.. often works out for me

Salary does put me off, both too low and too high! I tend to aim at only SLIGHTLY higher than I'm on but not way higher

"In companies, if salaries were published, I wonder how many women would push for higher ones? Why don't companies publish salaries?"

I suspect you answered your own question there.

I know one of my previous jobs had it written into our contract that we weren't allowed to discuss our salaries with other staff. Unsurprisingly I then found out that a male member of staff was being paid more than me - despite him doing less hours than me and having less responsibilities.

What made it more "interesting" was being told that there was no way I was getting a pay rise, and finding out that he was given a pay rise and less hours after he failed his assessment period as a supervisor and kicked up a fuss at being demoted back to sales assistant.

Funnily enough I don't trust companies that wont discuss (or let you discuss) pay scales.

I always thought that "essential" meant essential, too.

Baffling. Why can't people just say what they actually mean?

I never look at salary when applying for jobs. Or try not to, anyway! I think if I was applying for somthing which was 50k or 100k+ I'd be such a gibbering wreck I'd never get through the interview. However, every interview I've had so far has been successful (touch wood!)

Trills I agree that it makes no sense that it would be evolutionary. I think if there's a difference (and it sounds as though there is) it's very much cultural conditioning which causes both the difference itself and reactions to those differences.

Even this, right now, us discussing it - I wonder if men ever discuss reasons for salary difference, or whether they just accept it?

I had an interesting discussion with quite a senior judge on this point last year. She had also noticed that women seemed to apply for judicial appointment much later in their careers, so when they felt, ready whereas men did earlier. By doing this they increased their opportunities, as some of early appliers would succeed. If they don't succeed at first they will then also be at an advantage if they apply again as they'll have experience of the process.

It's made me change my approach to my career and see applying for jobs I don't feel I match the person spec as a learning experience as much as an attempt to actually get the job. Internal applications can also help shape managements view of you, ie as someone keen to progress. Once you take that approach then there's also less disappointment and it's less of a knock to your confidence if you don't succeed.

Holeyghost, Thanks for the book recommendation. I read the preview and found it really interesting where it said that as girls we assume that at some point "mr charming" will take care of the financial side, although I think for me it's always been the attitude that you should chose a job that you enjoy over one that pus well.

I definitely think girls need to brought up with the idea that they will fare for themselves, that money is important and that there is no harm in striving for it.

pus = pays. That was not an attractive sentence!

Are girls still brought up to expect a man will keep them? I thought that attitude went out generations ago.

I'm 36 and was definitely not brought up like that. Fortunately.

I definitely apply for jobs with a high salary (high in the context of my profession, which is definitely not actually high at all) but I wonder if that's because in my field, there is a very narrow criteria and it's perfectly obvious that I have the skills.

I would NEVER haggle a wage. Just never. I would never ask for any sort of bonus or extra stuff. My partner on the other hand is very good at asking for extras - a raise, extra days off, all that stuff. Last pay review he asked for a ridiculous amount of money just to see what they would say and while he didn't get it, he did get a raise. I would be mortified to ask for that amount of money but he just didn't care. OK, it's a small sample group, but the difference has always been striking to me.

Maybe there's also a difference in the type of jobs men and women go for? Men going into more competitive fields where salaries are negotiable and women going into fields like nursing or teaching where salaries are non-negotiable? From thinking about my friends and relatives, that would seem to more or less hold up.

Women take on fewer responsibilities at work because they nearly always have more in the home. Until we have genuine leisure time equality, women are always going to be fearful of adding even more to their workload when they are well aware that at any point they may have to take a day off with a sick child, start doing their mother in laws washing, or get up in the night to take a child to hospital.

Whenever I have taken ds2 to hospital with an asthma attack, the children's a and e is full of women, sometimes a woman with a man, but always a woman. Never just a man. I myself have deliberately avoided paid responsibility at work because I know that at some point, I will have to put my children first because their father won't. I have turned up at work exhausted and stressed and in no fit state to run a training shift, because of my home responsibilities ... Their father has never done that, because although those responsibilities were there, he wouldn't take them.

I can imagine that a frightening majority of women live that life.

Duke it's not so much in my mind these days, but definitely when I was younger, it was in the back of my mind that one day I'd get married and not have to worry so much. Not as a conscious thought, but it was there. I'm not that old, 29.

Well obviously 2 incomes mean you have more security than 1, yellowraincoat.

But really, I'm shocked that people are recommending a book that starts from that assumption. It normalises something that, as I say, I thought went out in the 70s. Seriously depressing if it's back, even though women are actually now known to have brains and everything.

I have to say one of the reasons i am wary of higher salary jobs at this point in my life is what they demand of you in terms of commitment. Both dh and I have decided not to go for certain projects/promotions in the last number of years because we have a nice set up at the moment: dh works flexitime and is usually home by 5.30, I have term time only hours. Our family is our priority and if we went for higher level jobs it would become much harder to sustain these sorts of hours and conditions.

In our case, these decisions haven't been based on gender but I do imagine that more women than men are likely to make decisions based on balancing work and home life. A salary of 50K to me would mean a job that required me to put its demands above that of my family and I'm not prepared to do that.

Duke well, yes, I realise that now, I wasn't suggesting for a minute that relying on a man is a good thing, obviously.

X post

"Even this, right now, us discussing it - I wonder if men ever discuss reasons for salary difference, or whether they just accept it?"

I can't imagine they wouldn't accept getting a higher wage.

I think some men don't really believe it happens, having bought into the convenient myth that we live in an equal world now. When I used to rant on about this stuff early in our relationship, dh used to be very sceptical that these differences existed and that women wouldn't progress in his industry (male-dominated) as fast as he would. He believed this whole-heartedly for a number of years and then one day he found a spreadsheet of salary differences and he was really shocked by them. His best friend at work was a woman and he didn't know whether to tell her or not: he did in the end and she took an equal pay claim. Since then, he has been very vocal when this sort of stuff comes up at work. In the last year he has fought tooth and nail for one of his juniors to get promotional opportunities he knows were being denied her based on the fact she is female... but realistically if he hadn't had me banging on about this in the background for the last 14 years I don't know if he would ever have been aware of it, he would have assumed it was just "coincidence" that certain women didn't get promoted etc.

This is interesting to read. I honestly wouldn't apply for a job which paid less than £65k basic and would expect to add about 50% more in bonus payments because I work in sales. When I go for jobs now, I say I want approx £75k basic because I know that's what most men will ask for in the same position. I am good at my job and I am 'worth' that much. It took me a long time to get there though - I'm well into my 40s now - and I doubt I would have had that confidence even in my mid 30s.

It's hard to get someone else to believe you're worth more if you don't believe it yourself.

Empusa - I work in a male dominated industry. My experience is that the older ones (age 50+) expect to be paid more (hideous generalisation) but that those my age and younger are usually oblivious because it doesn't even occur to them that it would happen.

Most company's (private sector) will pay what they can get away with so if women ask for less initially they'll probably get less.

BelleDame can I have your job?

yellowraincoat, I wonder, why won't you haggle or ask for a raise (if the salaries are negotiable in your field)?
Each and every time I have asked for a raise, I got one - well of course I time it strategically and don't ask often, but still. One boss once told me that if people don't ask for anything, he just assumes they are happy and fine as it is.

I also applied for my current job not meeting all the requirements - I considered it very unlikely that they would even interview me. Have to admit that no, normally I would not do it either - this time I wanted to move because of personal reasons and this job was at the right location. And was extremely surprised when I got it. The job pays 100K+.

So while there still are obstacles, the "but men have mortgages" and the perception that ambition women are unpleasant and pushy, while similar men are go-getters, I think we can still make a difference by taking risks and asking for more. As they say, you'll always miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

Probably if I don't sort my attitude out! I was thinking as I posted that it's one thing applying when you're in a job but I might not be quite so choosy if I was out of work and urgently needed a job. I have debts up to here!

Also, I am ooooold (nearly 47) so I need to ensure that I'm being paid enough when the tipping point comes at 50 and it's hard to find a new job if you're not being headhunted. Think that's true for both sexes.