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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Supporting abortion to term.

676 replies

VegansTasteBetter · 27/07/2012 20:01

Asking this question in feminism because, 1. I don't want a pro/against bunfight and 2 because I have only ever seen this comment made by feminists. *

I have seen the comment made that someone would support an abortion up until term for any reason (so in theory just because they changed their mind would be acceptable I guess).

If you take this stance is it because you feel to decide a cut off date for abortions would be to choose an arbitrary date in a pregnancy and that we need legally to have free access to abortions... but actually if your mate said, "just found out I am 37 weeks pregnant really don't want it, going for an abortion" you would be horrified and because you know it isn't likely to ever happen

or

if in the above scenario would you happily (assuming it were legal) take your friend down to the clinic to get an abortion because you belive the mother's choice trumps the fetus/babies right to life?

I'm prochoice but I have a real difficulty with people saying that it's acceptable for any reason up till term. And in the above scenario (if it were legal) I'd support my friend's right to demand to be induced early for her mental health and to give the baby up for adoption but not for an abortion.

  • disclaimer: I am a feminist but don't support this view
OP posts:
Margerykemp · 28/07/2012 20:09

But babies at 24 weeks aren't 'viable' in the normal sense of the word. Even with intensive and expensive intervention they have a 50% chance of surviving and then a 90% chance of significant disability. That isn't what I'd call 'viable'.

mellen · 28/07/2012 20:17

Margery, your figures seem low, for both survival and for survival without disability at 24 weeks - where are they from?

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 20:18

I would wish for the state to grant me full autonomy over my body and myself, including in my death.

EclecticShock · 28/07/2012 20:18

24 weeks is viable, those figured are low.

duchesse · 28/07/2012 20:22

I would have no problem with a mother changing her mind about being pregnant for WHATEVER reason (and I agree that it is not a decision that anyone would take lightly) and having an early/ very early induction. My mind is not made up about whether that would be a good thing between weeks 24 to 28 where it seems that to do so would mean the child would have a lot of sometimes painful treatment and possibly end up disabled from prematurity. I find the notion of killing (yes, killing) a viable foetus just to avoid everyone the inconvenience of having to deal with a live human being completely abhorrent.

I COMPLETELY support abortion up to the limits of viability and would make it even easier to get an abortion up to about 14 weeks (as in, on demand up to 14 weeks) so that people don't end up in the situation of having to arrange a late term one. Beyond that abortion becomes medically more complicated and is a major medical intervention so in my opinion from the woman's point of view and her health it should be easier to do earlier on.

I find abortion of a viable foetus distasteful. Legally the foetus has no rights so it is not murder but the process is still the same- you are killing something that is viable but inconvenient. The medical personnel who do it find it abhorrent- that should say something about what they have to do.

To sum it up, I would absolutely not support abortion on demand up to birth, no, because in my opinion beyond viability it's no longer only about the mother. Of course the mother's rights must trump the foetus' or we'd end up living in certain States in the US with the mother reduced to incubator status. But to claim that granting abortion up to birth is a feminist issue is very reductive when you're effectively dealing with two people beyond a certain point- one with rights, one without.

Allowing early birth by induction would at least give those humans a chance of life even if they are not viable. In the case of a foetus with a condition incompatible with life, why perform an abortion? Why not just induce and decide not to treat the baby? The answer seems to be that you can get away with killing a human before birth but not after and they don't want to run the risk of the child surviving but needing a lot of treatment. Is it a financial decision on the part of the medical establishment? Because that's what it seems like to me.

duchesse · 28/07/2012 20:23

jrost, the State also legislates against exposing our bodies full-stop!

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:24

Those are the figures I found when I googled earlier. I think i saw them on babycenter but they seemed to be the ones "out there".

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 20:28

I thought this might be a political and philosophical discussion about ownership of bodies.

Would anyone like to discuss that?

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:28

""In 2004, there were 185,415 abortions in England and Wales. 87% of abortions were performed at 12 weeks or less and 1.6% (or 2,914 abortions) occurred after 20 weeks. Abortion is free to residents,[32] 82% of abortions were carried out by the National Health Service.[34]""

I don't understand why people think that women would opt to abort later if it were available. Do people really think women are so fickle, and emotionless? They it would be a decision that women would go for - in more than a handful of cases - and without a bloody good reason?

It is just such a low opinion of women, it astounds me each and every time people say it.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:29

Ha ha linerunner

You'd have thought so wouldn't you Grin

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 20:31

I am poised, SardineQueen.

EclecticShock · 28/07/2012 20:31

This is a discussion about ownership of bodies... At what point does a mother stop owning a baby's body? I still think 24 weeks.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:33

Incidentally I have had an induction and I find comments like "Why not just induce and decide not to treat the baby?" flippant.

I also think they fail to take into account the emotional damage to a woman, between having an abortion and having to give birth to a live severely damaged baby and then have all the conversations about what this treatment means and that one and make a decision at that stage ie once she has seen and held it to have treatment withheld.

Now I understand that for some women the latter is the option they prefer and that is fine obviously but for women who are going to find that option utterly traumatising the removal of her choice and forcing her to birth and then order the death of the baby once it is outside of her body.... It smacks of punishing the woman somehow. It seems cruel.

Mintyy · 28/07/2012 20:34

"And that your suggestion that a woman who is left when she is pregnant is automatically not going to want to continue with the pregnancy / not going to want to keep the baby is also peculiar."

But that is not what she was saying at all Confused. She was scrambling around trying to think of any possible reason why someone would want to end the life of the baby they were carrying at such a very late stage in pregnancy.

If you are going to argue for acceptance of abortion right up to term SQ and others then you are going to have to be prepared for great deal of opposition and disgust. To find abortion at term a horrifying notion is simply to be human and to have the normal revulsion towards coldly and purposefully ending a life that is not your own.

The fact that it is extremely rare is immaterial. The thread is about acceptance of abortion to term no matter how rare it is ... or so I thought?

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:34

In all cases eclectic?

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 20:35

I believe I own my own body. Irrespective of pregnancy. Irrespective of illness. Irrespective of someone else's desires for my body, or for their wishes as what my body should do for them or their beliefs.

I would like to posit that as a starting point.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:36

"She was scrambling around trying to think of any possible reason why someone would want to end the life of the baby they were carrying at such a very late stage in pregnancy."

Yes because women aren't evil and callous and it is nigh on impossible to imagine a situation in which a mentally healthy woman would want an abortion at 7 months of pregnancy without a bloody good reason.

the fact that people have to "scramble around" to think of when this might happen betrays the truth.

But still teh insistence is there that women will do this and in significant numbers and what does that say about women? That they are, as a rule, unhinged psychopaths, that's what.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 28/07/2012 20:36

ES how do you ensure that a mother's rights are never compromised or less than other peoples if she is pregnant?

K999 · 28/07/2012 20:37

I believe I own my own body until I have another one growing inside me.....

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 28/07/2012 20:37

And agree completely with SQ.

SardineQueen · 28/07/2012 20:38

Yes i agree linerunner that it is up to me and me alone to decide what happens to my body.

mintyy you want the law changed in the UK then. What would you like the law changed to.

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 20:38

Is that a private belief, K999, or one which you would wish the state to adopt?

K999 · 28/07/2012 20:42

It's my own view. The thought of anyone aborting at full term makes me so Sad.

Mintyy · 28/07/2012 20:42

No, I'm afraid I don't believe in the ownership of one's own body as sacrosanct. The body includes the brain. The brain sometimes very badly lets us down and in those desperate cases the law steps in and overrides the impulses of the individual.

LineRunnerSpartanNaked · 28/07/2012 20:44

But we need a starting point of autonomy.

Otherwise the Victoriana of equating mental illness with pregnancy begins to happen.