How can we make younger women see how feminism is relevant to them?

[sunshineandfreedom]

I?ve been talking with a lot of my female friends about this over the past couple of weeks and they all think ?a book?, but I wanted wider opinions.

There have been some amazing books on feminism in today?s world that have come out over the past couple of years, but very little aimed at anyone younger than 23 or so (in my opinion, that is).

My generation and those coming after us are growing up being told (wrongly) that feminism is over. I don?t need to tell you about the negative messages and stereotypes society puts forward about feminism, as I?m already preaching to the choir here. My point is, though there are a lot of awesome blogs etc out there that are vibrant and useful, is there a need for something that spells it out to these young women? I know a lot of teenagers and young 20-somethings that agree with all the basic feminist principles but don?t want the label of ?feminist? attached to them and don?t feel confident enough in these principles stand up for them more vocally.

Of course there are some amazing young women who buck this trend but they are vastly in the minority.

I don?t know whether a book would be the best way to do it, though most that I?ve asked this it?s one of the more obvious ways. If you?re 22+ there are some fantastic books and information that we can identify with, but I think there?s definitely a gap in the market for something that spells out, in a friendly and non-patronising way, exactly why it?s okay to call yourself a feminist, why ?the battle isn?t won? etc. to these new generations who are growing up in a world where if anything in certain areas we?re actually sliding backwards...

I?m asking for your thoughts as I?m finding it hard to pin down what exactly would be the best way of going about this and wanted to garner opinions. I realise that this is a HUGE subject, and I have to go do some actual day-job work now, so forgive me if I don?t get back to the thread as soon as I might like!

Thanks

Show me some then

I do think it's a bit that younger women don't seem to engage with 'feminism', but at that stage in their lives they often haven't encountered discrimination. Massive generalisations, but education works well for girls. The workplace works well for female school leavers/grads. Most of the young women I know are well in control of their contraception, so aren't worried about unexpected pgs tripping them up.

What's harder of course is the more insidious messages about our bodies, appearances, approval from men, etc etc - but many older feminists find that hard too, don't they? I certainly do, anyway.

I have a 15 year old daughter who is doing pretty well at a single-sex state school. The only thing standing between her and higher education is the cost, i.e. does she want to take on such a huge debt. This, of course, is nothing to do with her gender and all to do with the economy.

I have tried to engage her in discussions about politics and human rights, but frankly she is far more interested in exams, clothes and going out with her friends (sadly not necessarily in that order). She understands the basic principles of unfair discrimination, but she has little or no awareness of basic political beliefs, structures or history, and she glazes over if I make any attempt at discussion.

I think, if she came on here and read some of the debates, she would not understand what all the fuss was about. To paraphrase Harold Macmillan, she has never had it so good. If feminism wants to appeal to her and her friends, you'd be better off employing someone like Cheryl Cole as a spokesperson and Peter Mandelson to prepare policy statements in 20 second sound bytes - all uploaded on Youtube of course.

Well, most 15-year-old girls are utterly self-absorbed and politically unaware (God knows I was) and most people generally are fairly unreflecting and don't question the norms of the period. A century ago the majority of women were not that bothered about getting the vote, and some actively opposed it.

But I imagine there are a lot of teenage girls who have been made miserable by the size of their thighs, by being left out for not having the approved tastes and interests, by their first boyfriend circulating a semi-naked photo of them to all his friends, by having their interest in physics derided. It would be nice if those girls had access to people or material that would tell them that the problem wasn't with them but with the wider culture of our society, surely?

Mooncup, I am afraid that StewieGriffinsMom finds our views that most 15 year old girls are utterly self-absorbed and politically unaware patronising and rude. Still, I guess we can only speak from our own experiences. There is, however, plenty of data to suggest that young people just do not engage in politics any more;

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/data/assets/electoral_commission_pdf_file/0019/16093/youngpplvoting_6597-6188__E__N__S__W.pdf

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8546536.stm

I was half-serious about Cole and Mandelson, though. People will listen to those who they feel are relevant to them. A bunch of dried-up old books about feminist theory and how men hate women will be a complete turn-off to most teens. The OP is asking how young women can be re-introduced to feminism, and how it can be made relevant to their lives. I am suggesting that in the era of image-based politicians and sound byte policies, it needs new presentation and new presenters.

You are very condemning of feminism, namechangeguy; what is your experience of contemporary feminism and feminists? It has nothing in common with mine.

I have no doubt that SGM's teenager is very clued up and engaged - it's hardly surprising given who her mother is! And not surprising either that she would make like-minded friends. I would be delighted if teenagers these days were more aware of such issues than I and my friends were in the 1990s, but since I don't know any teenagers myself I'm not capable of judging either way.

Where have I condemned feminism? We are discussing the method of conveying the message here, or I was. I have said that dry text books and the more radical extreme of feminism will not engage with most young women. I believe this to be true. However, there is far more to feminism than that. The emphasis on eradicating domestic violence, the glass ceiling at the very top of business and continued pay inequality are all extremely relevant today. Raising awareness of these and other issues via twitter, Facebook, Youtube are one way forward. Use of (groan) 'celebrities' is another.

There is a disconnect between young people and any form of politics these days. I have searched for, but failed to find, an excellent article I read about a year ago, possibly in the Guardian. The journalist bemoaned the complete absence of any protest songs across multiple acts, stages and days of a huge pop festival. In his/her opinion, everyone this was hellbent on getting drunk, drugged up and partying for 72 hours. As they pointed out, 25 years ago even the likes of Wham played at music gigs in support of the miners strike, CND, Greenpeace etc. Would we get a Band Aid these days? Are there any artists like Billy Bragg coming through, or U2/Paul Weller in their early days? Nobody actually seems driven by any of this stuff any more, and it's sad.

It's discussing the unacceptables and why women shouldn't want that for themselves too.

Fr instance if there's a Heat magazine lying around telling a story about a woman that was beaten in an abusive relationship, talk about why that's wrong, why a woman would not accept that, what they could do in such a circumstance.

These mags are a great source of material for discussing why appearance isn't everything, why shitting on your girl friends is a no no etc.

Sorry if that's not much help, I suspect I am not a very well thought out feminist but I believe todays girls should be given their wings and context for making choices. My friends and I have had many spin off chats based on empowerment just using these magazines as a basis.

Who doesn't want to see them - the OP? She is the one wondering, when she says 'I know a lot of teenagers and young 20-somethings that agree with all the basic feminist principles but don?t want the label of ?feminist? attached to them and don?t feel confident enough in these principles stand up for them more vocally.' I think the OP is asking about how to engage the masses with feminism. Maybe they already are though, and the OP just needs help with some of the women she knows.

I don't think it's fair to say "most 15-year-old girls are utterly self-absorbed and politically unaware" when the boys are every bit as bad! Or really, every bit as normal--those are adult concerns, and a 15-year-old just isn't ready for them, any more than s/he is ready for adult sexuality. Growing into it, and some more advanced than others, sure. But we can't expect kids not to be kids.

MooncupGoddess' statement I imagine there are a lot of teenage girls who have been made miserable by the size of their thighs, by being left out for not having the approved tastes and interests, by their first boyfriend circulating a semi-naked photo of them to all his friends, by having their interest in physics derided sounds very good to me. Those are all feminist issues that aren't abstract adult concerns, they're things that could really hit home to an adolescent, even if she's not personally much affected. Young people can be real idealists, and the concept that "Everyone deserves to be respected" might get past the eye-rolling response.

One of my daughters bought the Caitlin Moran book which is quite feminist last year and seems quite feminist. It would be surprising if my children were not feminist really. Obviously that book is for people over 15 however. Even so it is a funny book which is relevant to people who are fairly young and it seems to work.

I don't think we need people to use a particular word but we need boys and girls to be aware of gender issues. Surely if as a family you talk about them a lot then they get their own views on those topics. I remember one of my sons last year coming hoe saying a male teacher had suggested women cook, not men and he thought it sufficiently surprising to mention it.

I think teenagers need to dwell on the positive. How would you like to earn enough to buy whatever you want? Therefore aspire to be our surgeon or run businesses or be the most senior accountant at Ernst & YOung on £1m a year plus. That might well inspire a teenage girl. Also talking about the problems of women relying on male earnings, showing them examples of impoverished wonen who gave up work to clean up after men and what little good it does them

Interesting thread as I have an 8 year old daughter, who gets feminism for breakfast

Seriously, to give an example, her class were doing a play and she wanted to be one of the Roman soldiers, but the girls were offered the parts of being pupils in the classroom or clients in the beauty parlour - we had a great feminist chat about this. Ditto other every day subjects. No experience of teenagers yet, but I think awareness of the issues from childhood onwards is a very good starting point.

That said, I think different issues affect you at different life stages - so looking back, I think I believed that women had educational and employment equality when I was a teenager, but didn't really understand the levels of inequality which persist till I had children. As a young woman, though, I didn't really know how to resist pressure to have sex, or how to believe that my body was fine the way it was, or that maybe one should not automatically take the pill - all things which I look back now and think, I wish I had known that it was okay to say no, that I looked just fine etc, things I have no problem asserting myself with now.

I absolutely wish there had been something which had helped me understand the issues, or even let me know there were issues, when I was growing up. It's not like I was politically unaware, either, just that we worried about the environment, pollution, and other things. I had the idea that magazine images of women were not realistic and could be damaging, for example, but that didn't really give me the tools to do anything about how I felt about my body. So maybe it needs more than a book, I don't know.

Sorry, a bit of a vague response, I am very tired. But an interesting and worthwhile question!

Xenia, good point about boys and girls being aware. Obviously when DS is older, he will get the same diet as DD.

We certainly bought books for the older children when about 6 - 8 which were picture books for bed time from a feminist book club which showed women as doctors, fathers at home. I remember one with a female plumber - all quite fun. And then they see their mother anyway earning 10x their father who did more at home than their mother so nothing helps as much as that kind of example.

My dd (16) is very politically aware - she is by no means super bright, hot housed or indoctrinated but I fail to see how a teenager in today's world can fail to be politically motivated or interested in feminism. She is by no means alone, a lot of her friends are the same. Yes their heads are somewhat filled with nonsense, but then again so is mine. There is room for serious thought and trivia.

I don't think my daughter sees feminism as a bad word. I can't remember what prompted the conversation, but we talked about porn last week, and she is vehemently opposed to it, far more so than I would have been at her age. Mind you, porn is more mainstream than it was then.

I hope I have given her a good feminist role model in how I have raised her.

Xenia i read the Caitlin Moran book last week and i have passed it on to my 17 year old niece.
She is heavily into the rock scene and reads Kerrang.
I think a major problem we have now is the mysogyny in the media towards women. The worst example of this i have seen just recently is the reporting of the man who stabbed his children and then killed himself. Certain sections of the media were desperately scrabbling around trying to prove it was somehow the mothers fault.
Mysogyny in the media is a major problem. We didnt have publications like Closer and Heat when i was a teenager. Luckily my niece has absolutely no interest in things like this. I actually think in some cases it is worse now and in some ways we seem to have gone backwards.

The best intro or at least starting point for a good discussion on feminism is an essay I read in a blog ages ago. I can't do links on my phone, but if you google tomato nation yes you are it should come up.

Hi :) I'm just 21 and am intrigued. Can you give me some ideas about what feminism is about now a days?

Can we keep it to just feminism and not radfem please.

I'm nearly 40, and just discovering feminism for the first time.

I've always worked in a male dominated industry, always stood up for myself. And I've probably always been a feminist.

I was put off by the name. It's just inequality and sexism by another name, I said to myself. Just because it is the 'other' way round doesn't make it right.

Thanks to this board I am reeducating myself. But in short, those of us who were lucky enough to be brought up in a society that often strives for equality, something that sounds like it wants to promote imbalance, evev if I'd does not, well it might put people off.

CC - fairness is how I've always seen it. The chance for men to be at home with babies if they want. The right for men and women after divorce both to have equal time with children. Getting more women into high earning positions and positions of power, eg half the cabinet could be female. About 18% of top earning City jobs are in female hands only. That's appalling.

Also some women not being so good at asking for more pay at work than men.

Then in the UK and abroad it is about girls having their clitoris cut off and vagina sewed up (about 80% of girls in some countries in Africa suffer this); about women not being allowed to drive cars in Saudi or work or go out without a man or have any say over money; about in many Muslim states needing evidence from 2 women to equal that of a man. Those are all examples of feminist issues. I also include parental leave for men being more equal than it currently is for women.

I'm in my early 20's and relationships is where the ingraining of good values are setting, a lot of my age group now have children.

If someone was to say 'My OH refuses to help me look after the kids' it would be an uproar of get him told, why the hell not.

Not, 'aaw men will be men' so I do think the changes are happening where it matters tbh.

I would say- live it yourself- what you do is far,far,far more important than what you say, or any amount of books.