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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liberal vs Radical

59 replies

AyeRobot · 21/06/2012 21:28

I've been pondering for months on the in-fighting that goes on here, puzzled by the lack of common ground to be found between some posters and the hostility that creates. A friend shared a link with me last night that seemed to ring very true for my experiences on here and irl and wondered if it did for others, whether liberal or radical or undecided. Yes, it's from a radical feminist blog, but I would appreciate it if the words could stand (and be analysed) on their own, at least for a few dozen posts.

"Although media images - and perhaps particularly commercial advertising images - go largely unnoticed, or are often regarded as irrelevant, apolitical background noise, where liberal political analyses of media images are performed, commercial advertising is generally analyzed within a context of consumerism, where the assumed intent is to create and drive desire and to get people to spend money. A liberal analyst might also correctly note that racist, classist, sexist, or other offensive images and messages are often used toward that end. But even liberal feminist media criticism fails to analyze how and indeed whether any alleged "sexism" or offensive stereotypes in media images support patriarchy, including men's individual and collective power, and does not reveal or examine the root of women's oppression by men, and how all patriarchal media - including advertising - is collectively used as political propaganda against women, and toward specifically patriarchal ends.

And indeed, liberal analysis is not intended to do that. Like all politically-liberal analysis, liberal - and liberal feminist - media criticism is a limited, equality-based discourse that only intends to examine various -isms and perceived positional slights, based on the belief that -isms and slights are undesirable on their face. Thus, in liberal analysis, it is just as valid (if not just as likely) to point out how media images may be hurtful or offensive toward men as toward women, as in discourses centering gender or criticizing "gender representation" of both women and men. And for liberal analysts, it is just as valid or likely to point out "sexism" in media images as any other -ism, without ever acknowledging or analyzing how sexism and indeed all -isms and slights make specifically women more vulnerable to misogynistic abuse at the hands of men and male institutions and conventions; and how all -isms therefore ultimately benefit patriarchal power structures by decreasing women's power relative to men, which benefits all men, even men who are members of oppressed political minorities based on, for example, race or class.

By contrast, radical feminists do not believe that a liberal "equality" analysis is adequate because it does not expressly center or activate towards women's liberation from men, and for women's right to be free from misogynistic institutional and interpersonal abuse. We believe that activating for women's freedom from men is a full-time job and that it deserves our full attention.

We observe that in its efforts to eradicate various slights and perceived slights without centering women's sex-based oppression, liberal feminist analyses - including media analyses - deemphasize "men" and "women" as political classes. The result is to privilege an allegedly "neutral" yet decidedly male-centric perspective and reality where girls and women can potentially be made more comfortable, and thus more able or willing to fulfill the roles dictated to us by men to benefit men, but where girls and women are never to be made free. Because women's oppression by men is in fact class-based, meaning that women around the world share the experience of being enslaved and oppressed by men because of our sex, and because the nature and mechanisms of sex-based oppression make our oppression unique where only women experience it, we believe that class-based analysis is critical and the only one that will benefit women and inform a political platform that holds any promise to free us."

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WicketyPitch · 23/06/2012 21:38

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madwomanintheattic · 23/06/2012 21:55

Plum and cream sounds gorgeous. Ours is red and was going to be cream, but in the event it turned out to be a slightly yellowy colour. It caused no end of bloody drama. The red covered fine, but the cream / yellow was a frigging nightmare. The contractor pissed me right off as he'd said that brand of paint would cover without a primer. I should've watched more bloody paint adverts...

I did have a discussion on here some time ago regarding the red... (it's also the colour of our downstairs loo) and farrow and ball names. I've no idea what the actual colour is (have a pot somewhere) but to me it will always be 'menstrual joy' thanks to mn. Grin

I might have to rewatch that ad though. I just whizzed through it the once, and in the shower it struck me that the woman didn't have a voice. In reality, I think she might have said 'in here', when he came in the door? Not sure though...

Our bedroom is blue and white, which in the context of the ad makes me roar. It was blue and white before we had kids too. Grin

madwomanintheattic · 23/06/2012 21:57

Um, I was in the shower, not the woman in the ad. You didn't blink and miss it. Blush

garlicbum · 23/06/2012 22:19

Oh dear, I do consider gender issues wrt DIY! As an eco-campaigner, Dittany would probably consider the ethical impact of her paint, too, but I'm too cheap shallow pragmatic.

Going back to advertising, the weird thing is that target-audience focus groups (housewives) regularly prefer creative treatments with less patriarchal overtones. I think the reason data wins out is as much about playing safe with millions of pounds as institutional sexism. It's a bloody shame, though. It would/will be interesting to see whether a shift in market share can be achieved by the first brand with the balls to go for an anti-sexist campaign.

madwomanintheattic · 23/06/2012 23:16

We did consider using Eco-paint, acksherly... But it was twice the price. It's like flogging beer at 3 for 2 or bogof, along with pot noodles, or party bags of chocolate, but charging twice as much for veg.

I frigging hate supermarkets.

I loathe that it costs more to be ethically conscious. And loathe even more that it costs more to feed your children fresh produce than processed crap.

I just waste time being cross though, I have absolutely no idea what the processing costs and mark-up are for ready meals than they are for produce. Nor have I ever bothered to look it up. I just pay more. Interesting that I just suck up the price there, and don't for paint. No idea what to make of that.

AyeRobot · 27/06/2012 18:13

Himalaya - (not sure if you wanted us to riff on liberal vs radical or advertising Ayerobot?) - I think I posted this because I was trying to foster a sense of understanding between the starting points of two different positions and the lenses through which an issue could be viewed. It's just that that piece of text was at hand to demonstrate some stark differences.

Thank you all for your contributions. I haven't read them all yet, but will do so, although not respond further given the current dynamics.

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Himalaya · 27/06/2012 18:53

Well I think the dynamics on this thread have been quite fine.

Can't we all "be the change we want to see" and all that?

AyeRobot · 27/06/2012 20:42

Himalaya, I think I'm just done. Anyway, it's not about me, so I'll just quietly slip out of the back.

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HereIGo · 29/06/2012 13:07

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