Who is for equal parenthood?

[Himalaya]

(this comes off the other equality thread but wanted to start it as a Q in it's own right).

So much of the inequality between men and women in society comes down to the structures and assumptions that push us in such different direction when we become parents together, and it starts with maternity leave.

Sooooo.... Here is my manifesto.

1. 1 months maternity leave for women giving birth.
2. 6 months parental leave for new parents to be taken anytime in first 3 years (with some flexibility for both employer and employee) . An individual employment benefit/right - non transferable.
3. Redesign school hours and terms and wrap around childcare to fit modern lifestyles rather than harvestime and mothers as main carers.
4. build/retrofit cities so that affordable housing, good schools and commercial centres are close together.
5. free chocolate

Does anyone go for that? Is there any county like that?

Would you support a cut in female maternity leave and an equalisation of parental leave?

I don't criticise either, but fucking hell, it takes some twisted reading of the facts to accept that it is bossy fishwife women who are responsible for the fact that women are doing way more than their share of domestic shitwork.

enimmead - I can answer that question. My cleaning is apparently quite substandard so I don't bother doing it LOL.

On the other hand my OH's cooking is very substandard, inedible I'd say. I do try and be encouraging but the reality is that I'd rather do the cooking so that I don't have to go hungry!

Doing the washing up hoovering etc or not has no effect on career progression, why are we talking about it

do people really think that many fathers are not taking time off (post paternity leave) to deal with the obligations that arise from having children because they think they might do it wrong?

'Honey i would love to stay home with chicken poxy ds but i think i might do it wrong'

Athinginyourlife, I don't think that's what either of us are saying. I also think the point relates less to housework than other things (well it does in my case anyway). I don't think that there's too many women out there who would complain about their oh doing housework (even if they didn't do it that well).

It's more other things I'd say - particularly things relating to the children. I've definitely heard alot of mums discouraging their partners my complaining that they are just not doing things the 'right' way!

athinginyourlife - if you were constantly criticised at work about your standards, constantly told they were not up too scratch and felt that your opinions on things were not important and were not to be listened to as someone else knows best, how would you feel? What would you do?

And yes - there are some incredibly lazy sods who think that after a day at work, they are entititled to come home to a loving wife who has made tea, looked after the kids and done all the housework.

I think that's different - but still a big problem.

Yes, of course more than one type of situation exists, and I have acknowledged that.

But to argue that these inequalities are all women's fault for being so bossy and controlling is to read from the F4J manual.

"How would you feel if you were constantly criticised when you felt you were trying to make an effort but your efforts were not considered good enough by your OH?"

I do feel irritated when DH pulls this kind of shit (he is way better at this stuff than I) and I tell him to piss off.

Why? Do you think it gives me a free pass to do fuck all at home? :o

Because not being (that much of) a lazy so-and-so I have never grasped it as an excuse to shirk my share of the work.

I think its part of the same problem we're discussing here. It's like everyone 'thinks' that the woman is the only one able to give the kind of care that a new baby needs. I think I hear it being referred to as 'maternal instinct'.

My oh's best friend is very concerned about him being the main carer because he seems to believe that a new mother somehow just 'knows' how to do things that a father does not. Like when we get pregnant someone implants a chip into our heads that allow us to instinctively know how to do things.

Then women start to believe that this must somehow be the truth and the whole thing is just very disempowering for fathers.... in my humble opinion of course!

chibi - Now that's a good question. I think the honest answer is men are not taking time off to look after their children because the workplace hates it when parents take time off. But someone has to do it and I think most men view their career as more important than this responsibility. Or they are worried about the effect on their career. As are women.

I have no idea what the answer is - except working on developing family friendly businesses which support either parent and works on ensuring that no harm is done to a person's career if they have to work around their family. That is a company I would like to work for.

"do people really think that many fathers are not taking time off (post paternity leave) to deal with the obligations that arise from having children because they think they might do it wrong?

'Honey i would love to stay home with chicken poxy ds but i think i might do it wrong'"

I think it's more of a case of mummy saying "I really need to stay at home because chicken poxy child needs his mummy. My husband wouldn't even know what to do and spoonfeed him calamine lotion. God, men are so useless.

I've heard and read women saying things like that. It's a way of securing alpha parent status.

Ask yourself some questions.

Would you let your OH take your DS / DD to the doctors if they were poorly? Would you think they could get the information and convey the syptoms?

Would you let your OH buy clothes for your DS / DD?
Take them to the hairdressers / dentists ?
Talk to the school about issues your child had?

I know many who would but I also know many mums who would want to be there and take control. What message does that send?

I think the "useless men" bullshit is used by both sexes to their seeming advantage (but actual disadvantage).

I definitely don't think you can lay the responsibility for that at women's doors exclusively.

Women enjoy "oh I'm the only one who can out her to bed" and then moan about how they haven't slept for 3 years.

Their partners enjoy their rest and not having to take on night wakings, but then moan about feeling left out.

There is disingenuousness and territory marking going on in both directions.

Alpha parent - I like it :)

Same idea but other way around. I am no good at DIY, lighting a BBQ, playing football etc etc.

The times I have tried to do these things, I have invariably failed. Why? No-one has ever taken the time to try and help me improve these things and when I have tried I have definitely been criticised by my OH.

We're all guilty of doing it.

Athing - yeah, I agree, both sides are equally bad.

msfickle - I'm no good at DIY either. Let me assure you I have had plenty of criticism about misaligned shelves, wonky curtain poles and it looked so easy in the book burst radiators.

I can do a BBQ though. And I don't understand the offside rule (but I don't want to either)

Surely being good at DIY or lighting fires doesn't have to do anything with sex or gender? I'm good at DIY, and can light fires. I didn't need a man to show me how.

Being able to operate a drill is not some kind of innate skill which is passed on on the Y-chromosome.

Exactly

Yeah, we're all guilty of doing it to an extent, but I think part of that is giving in too easily to the "you are a man/woman, therefore stand aside and let me show you how it's done".

I have had to fight pretty hard at times not to have some bloke take over setting up a camera I am working on perfectly competently, or take cables out of my hand that I apparently couldn't possibly know what to do with.

If you're really that arsed, you can assert yourself. Although clearly you shouldn't have to.

I just find it a little hard to accept than so many men, socialised to get whatever they want, have no fight in them when it comes to saying "um, this is my kid, of course I can take him for a walk" (probably the most egregious thread of this nature I've seem - woman with 4 week old baby won't let partner take baby out for 15 minute walk to the shops. Is told it's perfectly understandable )

I think the point is how do our partners handle things which we do not do well but they do do well.

Criticise or support or find a compromise.

(especially on cleanliness. I don't think I could live up to Monica's high standards but I get by)

Athinginyourlife - I think you've hit the nail on the head there. And people are guilty.

I think some women do find it hard to let go and to let their OH take over and take responsibility for their child's welfare. And some women are perfectly happy to let their OH take responsibility for their welfare.

I think some men want to but feel they would "not be up to the job".
I think some men can't be bothered and let the OH do it so they duck out of responsibilitty.

And people do give in to easily because being assertive can cause friction.

"Being able to operate a drill is not some kind of innate skill which is passed on on the Y-chromosome."

No, but being taught how to operate a drill is something less likely to happen to girls.

Having opportunities to use a drill similarly.

A girl/woman who wants to be
a) competent at using a drill
b) accepted as being competent at using a drill
has to be pretty determined.

My MIL is brilliant in her refusal to accept that she can't do stuff, and she brought up her children to be the same. DH sees no reason why he can't cook/sew/keep house as well as anyone. And since his DDs arrived has been totally confident in his ability to care for them.

I love my MIL :)

Oh - I learnt it in school, as part of wood work lessons (which weren't optional) - I guess it's one of these having grown up in a different culture things again.

Inequality isn't imposed by structures. It's imposed by a lack of independence and too much reliance on others.

I worked very very hard from 20 to 34 and set myself up with a small house that was fully paid for. DH and I married when I was 31, moved to a bigger house and DH has continued to work very very hard. At 34 when I had my first child we had the independence for me to do what I was born to do and to fulfil my ultimate ambition - to give up work and be a mummy and to care and nurture our children. Eight years later I went back to work and have successfully carved a new career which has included professional qualifications and an MBA.

You get what you work for - nothing more and nothing less and part of choice includes making a plan and waiting until you have the means to support your choices.

No - I wouldn't have wanted a month for maternity leave, no I didn't think pregnancy and childbirth were illnesses, no I didn't need my husband to help me with the baby care (I was more than capable and loved doing it), no I didn't want my dc in wrap around care being nurtured and influenced by others or in an institutionalised nursery, no I do not want to live in an Orwellian inspired retrofit City, and no I certainly don't want bribery in the form of free anything least of all chocolate.

Woodwork was not offered in my all-girls school.

At my brother's all-boys school it was only offered for bottom streams