Can you think of a situation where women should NOT be treated equally?

[beansmum]

I'm writing a law paper on (various things, but mainly) different approaches to equality. I've just written that arguing for formal equality (i.e. no special/different treatment) has several benefits for women, one being that it is almost impossible to imagine a situation where an argument that women are not equal, and should not be treated equally by the law, would prevail. I'm thinking of cases where a woman is arguing her treatment is unfair, not a man.

If I say it's impossible to think of one, I'm pretty sure my tutor will immediately think of 4 examples. So I need my own and my brain is refusing to work. Any ideas?

[I don't actually think formal equality is a good argument, I just have to pass over it on my way to something else].

Wait, TV presenters have to buy their own clothes? I'm surprised. I'm not sure why exactly, I just always assumed they were dressed by some fancy stylist.

I think it's normal practice for news (and some other) presenters to wear their own clothes. I have heard that places like the Beeb keep a set of black suits on hand in case the Queen dies, but I think that's about it. You never see 'wardrobe' in the credits for news programmes, do you?

you would think they would be able to claim a clothing allowance, at least for the top half

The haircut prices thing fucks me right off. I've often wondered how they get away with it. Surely that ruling is due for a challenge.

I think studio presenters sometimes get an allowance; other journalists have to buy their own, even if they're on camera all the time.

ReallyTired, retirement age isn't earlier for women than men in the UK any more is it? Thought it changed years ago.

Dental treatment is free to pregnant women and mothers of babies up to a year old. Someone challenged this the other day, said surely partners of pregnant/nursing mothers should get free treatment too. But it's not about the cost of raising a child, it's about the effect having babies has on your teeth. Unless and until men actually gestate, that's one area of inequality that is fair enough IMO.

"ReallyTired, retirement age isn't earlier for women than men in the UK any more is it? Thought it changed years ago"

Women's retirement age is being raised and its still the case that women can get their state pension before men.

www.direct.gov.uk/en/pensionsandretirementplanning/statepension/dg_4017919

Women will get their pension earlier than men until 2018. The age that women can get their pension is being increased gradually. I don't understand why it cannot be raised over night to 65. This year the retirement age is 62.

We have split leave in the UK after the birth of a child from 20 weeks after birth. I'd like it split much earlier but with some protection to recognise the physical effects of having a baby. I would also like this nonsense that still exists in some places dh's enormous employer that women get full pay and fathers only get statutory. That is sexist.

So although i think pregnancy/maternity deserve protections (and more favourable treatment in some ways) I do not agree that "maternity leave" is necessarily part of that and certainly not as it currently stands even if it is much better than it was. It is still based in the idea that women are primary care givers. My personal opinion is that having done pregnancy, birth and postnatal recovery I deserve to have the option of saying "your turn dh" without losing the statutory payments made after the birth of a child because the father is caring for the baby not the mother.

Something else that is unfair but currently favours women is that paternity leave (additional and ordinary) is only available to employees, but maternity leave is available to employees, self-employed and workers. Not fair and actually limits women's choices too by its restrictions.

That is sexist. But I guess HR have reasoned that not many men choose an employer because of their good paternity leave policies.

I agree there should be a distinction between maternity leave/pay which should be just 'giving birth and recovering from giving birth' leave for biological mothers, and parental leave/pay which should be longer and available to male and female parents and adopters equally.

Do you mean something like:

A big firm with clients in a sexist industry have several account managers, male and female. A big new account comes in, to manage this account would be a promotion. The clients imply, or say, that they need their account manager to be a man (hints like "we chose you because we know we can enjoy working with you, your guys work hard and play hard" - lots of general macho stuff about how "girls" don't really "get" cars, or sport, or whatever the industry is). The best qualified account manager is a woman, but her boss gives it to one of the men because otherwise they will lose the account and the business.

The tribunal might acknowledge that this was discriminatory but let the boss off the hook on the basis that it wasn't his discrimination, but his clients' - in other words, he was acting rationally in a business world where his legal responsibility is to maximise shareholder value.

Is that the sort of thing?

In that case I don't think HR have reasoned at all Himalaya but they're not unique. I'm an HR consultant so I see a fair few examples of this and often not the organisations you would expect. I think in most cases they wait for someone to raise a grievance and save their cash in the meantime. Especially because the legislation is very new.

I used to work at same place as dh but I took redundancy after maternity leave. I'll let all you clever people join the dots on that one

KM - it's one of the things where I think Germany has it right. Paid Paternity or Maternity leave is up to 14 months, the first 2 of which have to be taken by the mother, but the rest can be shared by the parents as they wish, and portions of it can be taken concurrently (so dad can be at home the first two months with mum) - however, if a couple wishes not to share and only the mother takes them, they lose 2 months - so the mother only gets paid 12 months.

This is designed to encourage sharing of paternity/maternity leave.

the only thing i can think of is that i believe the first few months of 'mat/pat-ernity leave' should be priviledged to the mother for reasons of recovering from the birth and then breast feeding.

apart from that i think all 'maternity' priviledges should actually be 'main carer' priviledges.

maybe - for recovery from birth yes, but breastfeeding or not should be a choice and not enforced through leave regulations (as that doesn't work anyway).

If the mother wishes to breastfeed, the couple is likely to choose for her to stay home a bit longer (but it's also perfectly possible to breastfeed and go to work relatively early) - but the assumption that the woman must stay at home longer, because she has to breastfeed is not right nor fair.

(I'm a long term breastfeeder myself btw, but I still don't think it should be pushed through legislation which prevents a couple from making choices)

Absolutely agree Widow. The more choice is removed the worse off we all are. The German regs certainly don't stop mothers who want to stay at home from doing so and they protect the recovery period needed medically after a birth. Good stuff and I wish we had it here.

Just changing the 20 week rule would be enough. Everything else can stay the same and a father (or same-sex partner) cannot take leave without the mother signing the declaration and returning to work.

I think that shared leave would be good for situations where there is postnatal depression or there are older siblings.

I think the problem is that we would have to pay more tax and the British hate tax,

"I think the problem is that we would have to pay more tax and the British hate tax,"

But the total amount of leave granted per child born would not change, so why would there be a need for more tax?

Actually i would go further and say that parental leave is a right in employment - like your pension or tax free allowance, and shouldn't be transferable.

So apart from the seperate month of birth-leave just for mums each new parent could take say 6 months off within the first 3 years (in one block or negotiably at part time rates).

In the current system with a working mum and a non-working dad (eg a student) she would get maternity pay. But with a working dad and a student mum he would not get additional paternity leave (since it has to be transferred from her, and she isn't getting it) - the assumption is still that the mum is the main carer.

I work in a family business. My family have not allowed me to do one of the jobs - operate the sprayer because they were worried it would detriment my fertility and any children oh and I might have.

I got really grumpy about this for a number of years to the point where my Dad had to keep all the keys to the sprayer hidden as I'd just jump on and get going. I thought that as the risks were negligble I would be fine.

fast forward to now and I'm in the very early stages of pregnancy and am beginning to realise how much Mums worry.

I'm now quite glad my Dad wouldn't let me near the sprayer.

Mans prision guard .

Women shouldn't work there .

Or men's toilet attendant ....let the men clean up their own piss .

I remember working as a cleaner in a male police training centre. It was awful - how do they get those toilets to smell like that?

I just think its a man- piss -smell . .

Do they get force fed aspargus or something ? It's one of life's great mysteries .

Surely anything that relates to our different biological make ups, as mentioned below, sport, the fertiliser point and obviously pregnancy, periods, breastfeeding, I'm sure there's lots of examples where the law has to be different for men and women to ensure equality between them.

I've been to a fair number of really vile women's toilets too - seats sprinkled with piss, bloodied tampons and towels swimming in the bowls, and once I saw a turd on the floor. Really, who shits on the floor?

If the average public toilet is anything to go by, women are not fantastically clean and smell free either.

That is awful.