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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and Medicine

121 replies

macaroonmunch · 14/05/2012 21:42

Hi

I'm a frequent lurker on these pages and have learnt a lot from what I've read so I thought this would be a good place to ask what people's thoughts were on how women and women's health issues are seen in medicine. Apologies if I seem poorly informed, I've only recently begun really thinking about feminist issues.

I'm a current medical student and a lot of things in my education so far have just really annoyed me and don't seem right. The norm for all medical examples and anatomy is almost always male and the whole characterisation of some problems as 'women only' just seems odd to me when there is comparatively so little emphasis on 'men's health', as though men's health is the default and women's health problems are a whole other category. Even diagrams and models of the female reproductive system seem odd compared to the male versions- why is the vagina always depicted as gaping open whereas diagrams of penesis are always flaccid?

I don't know if I'm being over-sensitive but I know that the medical profession has not always been known as a bastion of feminism so I just wanted to gauge other people's opinions. What are the main ways in which medicine/medical education are sexist? And why? Sorry for the length of the post, I hope it's not too rambly.

OP posts:
kim147 · 15/05/2012 19:14

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Emphaticmaybe · 15/05/2012 19:19

Yes I know Cailin when you look at the NHS it would not make sense at all financially, but I wonder why in the realms of private medicine, especially the States, why it hasn't been addressed?

AlexandraMary · 15/05/2012 19:23

OP the answer to your question about screening relates to the efficacy of screening tests, which you'll cover in epidemiology and public health. Cervical screening prevents deaths, current methods in prostate screening don't. Still a lot of arguments about breast screening. Google "Wilson's Critera".

CailinDana · 15/05/2012 19:23

Perhaps for the same reason? A lot of medicine is quite clunky- if you see someone being treated for serious illness the brutality of it can be quite a shock. Once a procedure does what it's supposed to do it's usually just accepted - there's very little effort made to make it more comfortable for the patient (apart from administering pain relief). Research tends to go on the behind the scenes elements of medicine, once a procedure is found to be effective it's implemented and unless the procedure leads to infection/illness/death or is unsuccessful then nothing is done to change it.

kim147 · 15/05/2012 19:26

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AlexandraMary · 15/05/2012 19:27

Bowel screening has been rolled out in the last year (in my area at least) @kim147

AlexandraMary · 15/05/2012 19:29

nationwide, I see
www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/bowel/

AlexandraMary · 15/05/2012 19:32

@kim147 IME men DO ask about prostate screening and are very disappointed to hear about the limitations of the programme. In some case they argue that it's sexist that women have a screening programme and they don't even though the reason they don't is that there is not yet an adequate means of screening for prostate cancer. (let alone other male cancers)

kim147 · 15/05/2012 19:32

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thechairmanmeow · 15/05/2012 19:36

kim

Is it not effective? Are men held to be responsible for their own health whereas women are deemed not to be responsible and so a screening system is in place. Or do men not think their health is important and so have not demanded such a test?

i'm fairly sure the latter is correct, men dont demand health care is taken seriously like women do.

i have a point to make here , when there is a difference between the sexes women have a predisposition to assume they have pulled the short straw.

women tend to have invasive medical proceedures more routinely than men, (most women would laugh if a husband came home complaining that he felt violated by a medical proceedure) and this is probobly down to the fact that women take healthcare seriously and have demanded preventative measures like screening, but the very fact women are used to this means they dont end up 'dieing of embarressment'.

womens attitude to healthcare is IMHO one of their strengths.

ok, a smeer test may be undignified and unpleasent, a 'nessesary evil' but it's better than burying your head in the sand, thats what men are much more likely to do.

Emphaticmaybe · 15/05/2012 19:40

Yes I agree Cailin it can be quite shocking to see the clunky and brutal aspects of the treatment of serious illness first hand especially in an emergency situation, and in life and death situations comfort is low on the list - fair enough. It just seems to me that a procedure that half of the population needs to have on a fairly regular basis and that is generally not liked and by many loathed, has not sparked the interest of any clever and inventive medics. I think you can tell I'm just not a fan of smears - but I take your points on board.

AlexandraMary · 15/05/2012 19:41

the reason that cervical screening exists is not because of women's attitudes to health, it's because it works. Enough people find smear tests "acceptable" (per Wilson's criteria) for there to be a proven benefit of lives saved.

If there were similar tests for men's cancers they would be rolled out, in the same way that bowel cancer screening has been rolled out for both sexes.

I simply do not believe or accept that there is a patriarchal agenda here.

kim147 · 15/05/2012 19:42

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Sunnywithachanceofshowers · 15/05/2012 19:44

I did a bit of research for a writing project on infertility, when DH and I were going through tests. I found a great report (sadly mislaid) about the language around fertility.

Women were said to 'fail to conceive' - as if the issue of non-conception was owned / caused by their body. I can't remember the exact terminology, but where a man had something wrong with their sperm, the language was far more positive and neutral as to the cause.

Despite the fact that our 'failure to conceive' was caused by my husband's sperm, I went through a number of invasive (and sometimes distressing for me) tests 'just in case'. Nope, it was still him... He had two tests, both of which involved him and a small pot. No dyes, xrays or general anaesthetics were suggested.

There was an assumption that we would go on to have IVF following these tests, however we jointly decided to not to proceed.

One other thing: during our time going through tests we spent a lot of time in the gynae waiting room. Which was entirely pink, for fuck's sake...

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 15/05/2012 19:47

kim - I have had other invasive tests that are much much worse than smears. Bronchoscopy, lumbar puncture etc

exoticfruits · 15/05/2012 19:51

I would think that ageism in medicine gives more to worry about than sexism.

tazzle22 · 15/05/2012 19:53

The thing is you can put a different interpretation on your last statment macaroonmunch re cervical / prostate screening......

rather than saying that man are empowered to make their own decisions re their health whereas women have screening foisted upoin them - flip it !

Men could look upon it at as the medical profession favouring women . I mean us lucky women get both breast screening and cervical screening and they get nowt just for me.! Men - especially young men - ought to be campagning for testicular screening because they are the most vulnerable to cancer in that area. Should older men be screened for prostate cancer in the same way as women have mammograms ?

The reason they want women to get screened is to stop young women like the very public Jane Goody DYING and leaving her young children without a mother .. maybe that is why a gP will try to ensure that anyone declining the service is made fully aware of the risks.

Of course I know ( personally) that for some women it is a particularly sensitive area and that there should be awareness of it....... as there should be re tests involving the anus and other orifices as some people have unpleasant experiences involving them too. And it is not just a feminine issue !

Re the prostate check........ maybe it will get included in the "well men checks " that are starting to be offered to men over 50.

Both sexes can now access the test through the post for bowel cancer ..... now cheap and easy ........ anything that will be on offer to do widespread screening for nasties has to be cheap and easy to administer and is surely better than waiting till the symptoms are very obvious.

These tests apply equally to men and women.

KRITIQ .. wonderful post .... said much of what I wanted to.

a patriarchial environment does not necessarily mean it is mysogynist though.

Generally in medicine I can see the "misogynistic" elements more historically ...... men were doctors, women were nurses (or at home and pregnant). I dont think men hated women .... just saw them as being weaker physically ( most are) and mentally ( well in meaning that they actually liked being "looked after" ..... which a proportion of them did).

Yes a lot of the things that have been cited as horrific in psychiatry were done to women like lobotomies and ECT....... but these things were also done to men. I am old enough to remember seeing these done.
Women were put into institutions for being "mentally ill" in having a child out of wedlock ... some were so intitutionalised they could not cope "outside" and I remember some of them in their twilight years. But there were men too that were put into this assylum for conditions that today would be deemed "mild" because the profession as a whole is much more knowledgable and enlightened.

Ad's are of course given to women ... recognising that depression is an illness rather than them being dismissed as silly. Men often do not seek the help from gp's (tending to turn to drugs / drink or suicide instead) so no they will not statistically take as many ad's as women. PND is much better diagnosed these days too which will add to the statitics .( I remember 30 - 40 years ago when my mum was post birth and also lost babies .... her depression was not identified or treated. )

Many of the very things that gave women more control over their bodies have been provided by the mainly male medical profession

The medical profession is by no means perfect ...... but I just cannot see it as entirely misogynist as some posters seem to imply.

tazzle22 · 15/05/2012 20:05

sunny . the reasons you were still given tests that are invasive is that there still could have been blocked tube or something that would need treating ..... no point in treating DH (or getting sperm in there by any other means) if the egg cant get to meet it.

The reproductive tract of a woman is much bigger and much more can go wrong so it all needs testing.... and its right inside or bodies. How else can they test it all except by dyes etc ...... short answer, they cant !

Men just produce good swimmers or they dont .........and of course it aint fair that all they have to do it produce in a pot. But my dH actually found that highly embarrassing ( even though it is the cheapiest and easiet test to do)

imo you reading too much into this ......... although I agree uggghhhh re pink waiting room Wink

kim147 · 15/05/2012 20:40

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 15/05/2012 20:53

What KRITIQ and tazzle (thank you, ladies, for saving me a lot of typing. That I am not sure I would have been bovvered to actually do... Blush)

IMO a lot of the inherently sexist/mysoginist structures in healthcare will change as now well over 50% of medical students are female which is a trend that is likely to continue.
This also hopefully going to change how common-place part-time training and practice is for HCP. Which in turn should allow for a higher proportion of consultants to be female.

May not happen in my working life, mind....

PacificDogwood · 15/05/2012 20:54

said, I forgot 'said' in my first sentence (I knew I should not have even tried tonight)

Margerykemp · 15/05/2012 21:37

DIY smear tests: www.healthdaily.co.uk/health-matters/2011/11/02/diy-smear-test-four-times-as-effective

GP are happy with the status quo because they get paid handsomely for doing smears to women.

Sunnywithachanceofshowers · 15/05/2012 21:45

@Kim

I don't think I explained myself very well, I didn't want my husband to go through invasive procedures.

What I experienced was a kind of 'let's open you up and see what's going on' attitude, whereas my husband's issue (pun intended) was barely mentioned.

WRT language, it's difficult to express without having the report to hand (and Dr Google has failed me). I understand too well that a man is affected by being told he has a low sperm count (and fwiw I never use the term jaffa). It's that a woman's body, even when it is functioning normally, i.e. having a period, is described as 'failing' at something when it is not.

So, despite the fact that our fertility issues were caused by my husband's sperm quality, my body was described as having 'failed to conceive', when it could be more accurately said that his sperm failed to fertilise my egg. A woman's body is seen to fail if it does not achieve a particular goal i.e. to conceive.

Historically women have been blamed for infertility - from the story of Rachel in the Bible to Anne Boleyn and onwards. It seems that, in some small way, women are still 'blamed' if a pregnancy doesn't occur.

Atreegrowsinbrooklyn · 15/05/2012 21:53

RE clinical drug trials-

A trialled drug may have teratogenic effects long (decades) after its administration because of the way the female gamete is formed and stored within the ovary as opposed to the male gamete in the testes.

I have seen female patients treated in a discriminatory and gender-stereotyped manner by both male staff and by female staff who have internalised male hierarchal values. I have experienced this both as a patient and an RMN.

tazzle22 · 15/05/2012 22:09

thank you for that link margerykemp .... did not know one could do home smears . Is this still in trial stage as it says is still a study in mexico. If the medical professionals will roll out the home tests for bowel cancer rather than have people come into the surgery maybe they will do this too ?