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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'High fliers' and nannies

999 replies

Takver · 02/05/2012 21:07

I've seen in several places recently (including in threads on here, and for example in this article in last Saturday's Guardian) an assumption that if you are a wealthy and successful family where a nanny provides most of your childcare this is likely to result in your children being less 'stimulated' / likely to become highfliers themselves / otherwise missing out.

Typical quote from the piece linked to: "You assume they'll be intelligent, but you've never wondered how this will come about: when they try to interact with you, you're too busy."

Now maybe I'm overthinking this, but it seems to me that if we go back 40 or 50 years, it would have been the absolute accepted norm in a wealthy family for nannies / other staff to do the vast majority of childcare, and indeed for boys at least to then be sent off to boarding school from age 7 onwards. I can't imagine that anyone would have dreamed that this would in someway disadvantage their children or result in them being less successful themselves when they grew up. Of course back then the women of the family wouldn't have had the option to have top jobs themselves, they would have been occupied with their social functions.

Yet now - when women are able to access high flying jobs - we are told that this pattern of purchased childcare is going to disadvantage the children. And of course the corollary of this assumption is almost invariably that it is the mother - never the father - who is in some way being selfish by devoting their time to work and not childrearing.

I should say that I don't have any direct interest here myself - I am absolutely Ms-hippy-nature-walks-and-crafty-shit-mother but it just seems to me like another cunning way to stick women right back where they belong . . .

OP posts:
CailinDana · 04/05/2012 14:21

That sounds like a great set up bigkids.

WasabiTillyMinto · 04/05/2012 14:27

caitlin DP has run an early years unit, a Sure Start centre, some other childrens centre, multiple primary schools and currently has a staff of over 100 including nursery nurses.

i think we can hire a nanny between us....

maples · 04/05/2012 14:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CailinDana · 04/05/2012 14:29

That's good Wasabi. I used to be a developmental psychologist and a primary teacher but I'm not sure I could pick someone and be definite that they were doing what I would do.

WasabiTillyMinto · 04/05/2012 14:32

did you hire/manage anyone in your previous roles?

bigkidsdidit · 04/05/2012 14:37

We do have a great set up, and as I say are very lucky. But the thing is we are doing well at work - I've just got a brilliant new post and DH is goldenboy. It just goes to show you can rearrange the model and still be v productive if your bosses are forward thinking (and the job allows it obv).

fusam · 04/05/2012 14:38

I agree with Vezzie.

The majority of us don't live in the extreme stereotypes bandied around. The majority balance our work and private lives as best as possible and whilst not perfect manage to raised fairly well balanced individuals. People pour a lot of effort into their vocations as well as children and are capable of nurturing both. The disservice we do is to create a world where only one or the other is possible.

Am I the only one that is actually optimistic about the future, btw? Especially with the new sharing of maternity leave, I think that a lot of fathers are going to find it very difficult to return to work in the stereotypical full time long office hours culture after spending a significant break with children. They will start demanding more flexibility from employers and work/life balance will hopefully cease to be a women's issue. There are very few jobs right now that actually cannot be done flexibly/from home. The technology is there for home working to be seamless for most (it is for me).

WasabiTillyMinto · 04/05/2012 14:47

Cailin did you hire/manage anyone in your previous roles?

CailinDana · 04/05/2012 14:51

When I was a developmental psychologist I did. But I think hiring someone for a job is different than hiring someone to take care of my child. I'd want different qualities from someone who was caring for my son, things that can't really be demonstrated on a cv or an interview. A person can come across as very competent and caring but when they're on their own they could be very different. The difficult thing with a nanny is that they have no one supervising them during the day, they can do literally anything they want.

WasabiTillyMinto · 04/05/2012 14:59

Well i hope DP can identify someone who genuinely cares for children seeing as what he does for the hundreds of children in his (and other professionals) care.

i really dont think there are many parents hiring disinterested/damaging nannies/carers. Do you?

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 14:59

Even Ayn Rand changed her mind in the end, Xenia...

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 15:00

Tilly - Not on purpose. But it certainly happens.

amillionyears · 04/05/2012 15:07

Wasabi, if you had a hidden camera in your house, it is just possible you may be surprised.Not sure how legal a hidden camera is.

maples · 04/05/2012 15:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

amillionyears · 04/05/2012 15:08

Or, you may be pleasantly surprised.

handbagCrab · 04/05/2012 15:09

Great post vezzie

For there to be winners in the current system there has to be an awful lot of losers. And we are kidding ourselves if we think we're all on the winning team.

cailin I didn't realise you were a developmental psychologist eek! Is that why you ae adamant that only a parent can provide the right care? Is that what the research at your level shows?

CailinDana · 04/05/2012 15:19

Nannies are generally paid quite poorly to do a very tough demanding job. I'm sure there are plenty of nannies who give a great deal of effort to it. But I also think it must be very hard to stay motivated when looking after children who are not your own. Heck sometimes I feel like selling my DS to the gypsies and I love the little blighter more than I thought it was possible to love someone. I can't imagine having the same level of motivation with someone else's child, especially if I wasn't paid very much.

Handbag, you know the way doctors sometimes say they're the worst people for worrying about medical problems when it comes to their own family? I think I'm that way with my DS as a result of being a developmental psychologist. I've seen so many things that can go wrong that I see problems where there aren't any. I'm hyper-aware. The fact is, the vast vast majority of children turn out fine. In reality my concern is seeing parents enjoying their children more and moving away from a model where they devote so much of their time to work. I don't want to bring up my child just so he can have a life where he works 80 hours a week and doesn't have time to just enjoy life. It seems such a waste.

maples · 04/05/2012 15:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

vezzie · 04/05/2012 15:28

CailinDana, I find it surprising that you think the relatively low pay a primary part of why you don't trust nannies, and yet you are talking such anti-materialist stuff elsewhere. I would not expect a nanny to be slack because she doesn't see herself as paid enough - if that is what motivates her, she wouldn't be in that job. why do you attribute those motivations to everyone else, inclduing nannies at the same time as so fastidiously and loudly distancing yourself from them yourself?

ethelb · 04/05/2012 15:35

the thing I don't get in the argument is why people who send their chidren to baording school get off so lightly.

That is seen as aspirational and a good thing but still involves handing your children over the 'strangers'.

CailinDana · 04/05/2012 15:35

People work primarily to earn money. If they enjoy their job, great, but very few people would work for free. The idea that people childcare shouldn't expect to be compensated fairly is one I see quite often and it's a bit odd. Nannies and nursery workers work to earn money just the same as everyone else. If a job is tiring, frustrating and at times emotionally draining (as looking after a child can be) then it's normal for a person to look for their motivation elsewhere and the money a job pays them can provide that motivation. If a person works long hours in a frustrating job that doesn't pay well then motivation can be hard to find. In that case you are very much depending on a nanny to put in effort out of the goodness of his/her heart, because she loves the child. That is a big ask IMO.

I'm not highly motivated by money, that's true, but that doesn't mean I would do a tough demanding job for poor pay. Just like anyone else I expect to be compensated fairly for the effort I put in and I don't think the salaries most nannies earn do that.

amillionyears · 04/05/2012 15:36

Do you trust yourself 100%, hopefully yes.
Do you trust the nanny, how many %?
And I speak from the position of my DD working in a childcare setting.

CailinDana · 04/05/2012 15:36

Oh god ethel don't get me started on boarding schools!

WasabiTillyMinto · 04/05/2012 15:40

Cailin - DP has spent years developing & educating other people's children. he does not find it hard to stay motivated. the same applies to most the professionals he works with.

maybe you dont want to care for other people's children but other people do?

CailinDana · 04/05/2012 15:47

Yes I have no doubt that there are some people in the world who want to care for other people's children for relatively low pay. There are people in the world who want to do every type of job.