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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'High fliers' and nannies

999 replies

Takver · 02/05/2012 21:07

I've seen in several places recently (including in threads on here, and for example in this article in last Saturday's Guardian) an assumption that if you are a wealthy and successful family where a nanny provides most of your childcare this is likely to result in your children being less 'stimulated' / likely to become highfliers themselves / otherwise missing out.

Typical quote from the piece linked to: "You assume they'll be intelligent, but you've never wondered how this will come about: when they try to interact with you, you're too busy."

Now maybe I'm overthinking this, but it seems to me that if we go back 40 or 50 years, it would have been the absolute accepted norm in a wealthy family for nannies / other staff to do the vast majority of childcare, and indeed for boys at least to then be sent off to boarding school from age 7 onwards. I can't imagine that anyone would have dreamed that this would in someway disadvantage their children or result in them being less successful themselves when they grew up. Of course back then the women of the family wouldn't have had the option to have top jobs themselves, they would have been occupied with their social functions.

Yet now - when women are able to access high flying jobs - we are told that this pattern of purchased childcare is going to disadvantage the children. And of course the corollary of this assumption is almost invariably that it is the mother - never the father - who is in some way being selfish by devoting their time to work and not childrearing.

I should say that I don't have any direct interest here myself - I am absolutely Ms-hippy-nature-walks-and-crafty-shit-mother but it just seems to me like another cunning way to stick women right back where they belong . . .

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Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:14

Bosoms have a lot to answer for.

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:15

ie, if you bf, you absolutely spend a hell of a lot more time with the baby than the man, inevitably. And then all that pesky bonding oxytocin kicks in...

Takver · 04/05/2012 09:16

"the nuclear family model is both new, strange and unnatural"

So is industrial society . . . and the split between production and consumption . . . and removing us from control of the means of production

Besides, aren't paid staff providing childcare very common in even middle class Indian families

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Takver · 04/05/2012 09:17

"if you bf, you absolutely spend a hell of a lot more time with the baby than the man, inevitably"

only if one of you has to be away from the home to work. Otherwise its perfectly possible to split babycare even while bf/ing.

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CailinDana · 04/05/2012 09:21

You say hiring a nanny won't harm the intellectual and social development of children, but what about the emotional development? The feeling of security that comes from being looked after by someone who genuinely loves you, someone who smells like mummy/daddy who breastfeeds you and cuddles you and thinks you're amazing. A nanny might be fabulous but they're just not a parent and I don't think they can really stand in for a parent.

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:21

Yes, but it's within the family compound so the children have access to lots of family members all the time.

And yy to the rest.

It is possible, but when you bf the baby is physically attached to the mother for 23 out of 24 hours in most cases!

Bonsoir · 04/05/2012 09:21

But Hully - I should hate to live in a large family group. I love my nuclear family!

Bonsoir · 04/05/2012 09:23

Being cared for by a nanny in the early months/years is a wildly different experience to being cared for by a breastfeeding mother.

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:24

Ah but you, like Xenia, are the exceptions that prove the rule. ie you are both happy within your polarised roles.

Bonsoir · 04/05/2012 09:25

I don't know many people who want their parents-in-law under foot!

maples · 04/05/2012 09:26

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handbagCrab · 04/05/2012 09:26

takver absolutely agree with your cabinet minister sentence.

I suppose one could say that men should do the majority of the childcare as women have already got a strong bond through pregnancy and breasfeeding and the associated hormones so this would even things out! :)

I think the key would be to have part time without penalty and career breaks that dont break your career. All open to men and women. All seen as valid choices. The vast majority of us are not mps or company directors so this should be straightforward!

Takver · 04/05/2012 09:28

"when you bf the baby is physically attached to the mother for 23 out of 24 hours in most cases!"
True to start with, but only for a few weeks IME - certainly within the recovery time from giving birth. (DD b/f for 2 years & it didn't seem a barrier to sharing care 50:50 even from very early on)

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Takver · 04/05/2012 09:29

Thanks Maples, I wanted to say that but its a very long time since I studied economic history & didn't feel certain enough of myself!

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Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:30

500 years is v new in evolutionary terms.

You were lucky, Takver, me and everyone I knew had an attached baby dangling about our bosoms for hours and hours for months.

maples · 04/05/2012 09:30

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maples · 04/05/2012 09:32

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Bonsoir · 04/05/2012 09:32

In France, where mothers in cities did not usually take care of their own children but sent them to wet nurses in the countryside, infant death rates were horrible. And the DCs in the countryside died too, because their mothers were feeding the DCs they were paid to nurse.

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:33

But 500 years ago and onwards, people died at 30. The industrial revolution hadn't happened etc etc, it is difficult to suggest that one model remained constant irrespective of social and cultural context.

maples · 04/05/2012 09:34

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Takver · 04/05/2012 09:35

"me and everyone I knew had an attached baby dangling about our bosoms for hours and hours for months."

I think maybe it depends what your baby gets used to? I know a good selection of b/f babies who've been born in the housing co-op we used to live in & they were all very happy to spend extended periods with other co-op members from very early on and seemed to love cuddles/sling carrying etc from other significant adults in their lives.

I know its coming at it from a very different angle, but maybe that's why I'm not so uncomfortable with non-parental care?

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NotSureICanCarryOn · 04/05/2012 09:38

The feeling of security that comes from being looked after by someone who genuinely loves you, someone who smells like mummy/daddy who breastfeeds you and cuddles you and thinks you're amazing.

Interesting, what about mothers who are looking after their dcs but haven't bf?
Are they not 'as good'?
And why would a nanny not loves the dcs? I have seen some nannies around that have been with the children since they were more or less born. In particular, one family who had one child and then twins were close together. The 'nanny' started as a helper at home when mum was on maternity leave, and then looking after the dcs on her own. I can promise you that these children love their nanny and that the nanny loves them. They are very close unit.
The comment of the mum was that she loved her nanny because she knew that if one of them was unwell she would be able to look after the dc but also provide emotional support and closeness.
I've seen that too with some childminders too actually.

And others (nannies or childminders) who treat it as a 'job'. My job is to ensure A,B and C. Emotional involvement isn't included so everything is done with some distance and lacks warmth.

As always it isn't just about the job itself, it's about who is doing the job.

You also have to remember that, nowadays in European countries, not all countries see the 'mum stays at home' as being the best thing for the dcs at all. Having a mum who is working, being financially independent (which means one who would be able to provide for her dcs if anything was to happen to the father) is actually seen as more desirable.

Hullygully · 04/05/2012 09:38

I think the key part is "significant adults." As I said earlier, some parents are shit, children need continuity of care from adults that deeply love them, they don't have share blood gropus.

handbagCrab · 04/05/2012 09:39

Surely 500 years ago people worked in the home? They weren't at home purely looking after dcs.

My house is only a 100 years old and was built with large windows so the people living here could see to spin and sew.

NotSureICanCarryOn · 04/05/2012 09:42

Takver, completely agree!

The idea that only parents can be an 'important person' in the child/baby life is a very recent idea and imo isn't true.

Beside, not all parents are at the right place to actually parent 'in an adequate way' eg mum with an illness and having other 'important persons' in your life is actually a good thing.

We just seem to have forgotten that as few people die young, few people get badly ill so it just does not enter our conciousness.