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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'High fliers' and nannies

999 replies

Takver · 02/05/2012 21:07

I've seen in several places recently (including in threads on here, and for example in this article in last Saturday's Guardian) an assumption that if you are a wealthy and successful family where a nanny provides most of your childcare this is likely to result in your children being less 'stimulated' / likely to become highfliers themselves / otherwise missing out.

Typical quote from the piece linked to: "You assume they'll be intelligent, but you've never wondered how this will come about: when they try to interact with you, you're too busy."

Now maybe I'm overthinking this, but it seems to me that if we go back 40 or 50 years, it would have been the absolute accepted norm in a wealthy family for nannies / other staff to do the vast majority of childcare, and indeed for boys at least to then be sent off to boarding school from age 7 onwards. I can't imagine that anyone would have dreamed that this would in someway disadvantage their children or result in them being less successful themselves when they grew up. Of course back then the women of the family wouldn't have had the option to have top jobs themselves, they would have been occupied with their social functions.

Yet now - when women are able to access high flying jobs - we are told that this pattern of purchased childcare is going to disadvantage the children. And of course the corollary of this assumption is almost invariably that it is the mother - never the father - who is in some way being selfish by devoting their time to work and not childrearing.

I should say that I don't have any direct interest here myself - I am absolutely Ms-hippy-nature-walks-and-crafty-shit-mother but it just seems to me like another cunning way to stick women right back where they belong . . .

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 10:13

"imagining" - I think that says more about you being mean-spirited than anyone else, wordfactory Wink

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 10:17

Oh come on, you know how these women are!!!

I even had one ask me, in all serious, if I'd noticed that the DC with dyslexia almost all had two working parents.

I cannot believe they only crow to me!!!!

CailinDana · 10/05/2012 10:20

No, they definitely do exist word. They're pretty rare though.

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 10:22

Yup. Like I say, they are a sub strata on most parents.

Mostly women. Mostly very highly educated. Mostly married to rich men. Mostly utterly convinced that they are great.

CailinDana · 10/05/2012 10:24

I'm not sure they are convinced they're great though word. Usually that need to run down other people comes from insecurity IME. My mother loves to run down other parents, but she hasn't an iota of confidence in herself. She comes across as incredibly arrogant and opinionated but deep down she's a little girl who hasn't a clue.

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 10:25

No, I don't know what you mean. People have factual conversations about outcomes. Maybe educational/linguistic/family complexity is so great where DD is at school that clichés like that just aren't possible.

Emphaticmaybe · 10/05/2012 10:26

I think you are right about the alpha mummies word but they are only a small proportion. Many SAHM simply get up and do the best they can each day and I'm actually rooting for my peers who are managing careers and children. I have to - I have 3 daughters. I want women to be present in all professions at the top. My past experiences and circumstances have shaped the choices I've made, like cailin.
I just want my daughters to have choices and that means women and men have to work ft, pt and stay at home. Every option has to be seen as a viable choice.

duchesse · 10/05/2012 10:27

They do exist. Like the one that sparked this OP for example.

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 10:31

I think we all know a few. Apart from bonsoir naturally Wink

Perhaps you're right caillin and they're actually not that convinced thst they're great so they feel the need to explain it ad infinitum...

Some of them are also delusional of course. They actually believe they're really nice and are only thinking of the children.

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 13:48

Maybe you need to move away from cliché commuterland, wordfactory, to somewhere where people's lives are a bit more interesting complex.

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 14:06

Dunno bonsoir. By the looks of your posts, most of the families around you are bloody awful!

WasabiTillyMinto · 10/05/2012 14:17

its a difficult one isnt it?

I don't think a bit of voluntary work wihtin the community can make up for how few women there are in the judiciary, politics, business etc

listening to say, 2 hours reading at a school, is undeniably a good thing. and i dont see how it serves feminism to put any women down who does that. however, if lots of women are SAHM of long periods of time, we wont get any more equality than we have now.

which as feminists we can agree is not a enough.

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 14:22

Then why complain about Alpha mummies leading irreproachable lives Wink. I certainly don't have any of those to contend with!

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 14:35

bonsoir be glad of it. You sound like you're surrounded by enough awful families as it is Wink.

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 14:43

I like complex and unpredictable and I like pulling it all apart and working out the drivers of human behaviour and achievement (in case you hadn't noticed Wink). In big cities you get all sorts, that's for sure, but you also get fantastically interested and interesting...

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 14:54

Oh I get that.
I'm a writer, and I love to examine what makes people do the things they do (particularly awful things). Human behaviour is facinating. I'm intrigued by people's ability to delude themselves. My current WIP is all about how unreliable people are. MN is great research too Grin. Though I must stop and write more!!!!

But in my day to day life I don't like things too complex. It can be a bit exhausting no?

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 15:10

If you like deluded you need to be in a big city Wink - so much temptation, so much competition, so much speed - everyone thinking they can do and have it all, and show the world just how much bigger and better they are doing (and cutting a million corners in the process).

I don't mind exhausting either. I like lots of things going on. Though I must admit that when I go to my parents' house (English rural idyll lifestyle), I do quite enjoy, momentarily, the time to linger on frivolities.

Xenia · 10/05/2012 15:13

Indeed. I was wondering about that mother in London who just killed her toddler and baby and then tried to kill herself but did not manage it. Her poor husband. Presumably she has PND. I do think the more people who can be around small children the better. Even if you have a clearn in the house people are less likely to show themselves at their worst.

More importantly as Wasabi says unless fewer women who might rise to the top stop giving up work we will never make the progress we want to more women in power.

I suspect as long as women prefer to marry men who earn more (or live with them if they choose not to marry) then the problem will persist.

snappysnappy · 10/05/2012 15:19

I dont really think the issue is City vs Rural. Most city SAHM's I know dont visit galleries or talks very often. Then again most of them have young children who are not yet in school!

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 15:25

Then you've met the wrong ones, snappysnappy. All the mothers I know are pretty busy with cultural pursuits as well as all sorts of other things!

wordfactory · 10/05/2012 15:25

Well we are thinking of spiltting our time as of September.
DS will be going to school in town and he isn't going to want to commute every day. And DH is sick of commuting every day. And I will be working one evening a week in town.

Then when it all exhausts us, we can run back here Grin

Xenia · 10/05/2012 15:42

The typical British mother is not pursuing cultural pursuits. She is wondering if she can afford the bus fare to get the children to the park having been up all night with the screaming baby.

Bonsoir · 10/05/2012 15:45

Cultural pursuits are a booming sector in the UK, Xenia. A friend of mine works for one of the big national cultural organisations, having worked for a big London museum before that. Mothers and children are a huge market!

Xenia · 10/05/2012 15:47

The London museum are free but a lot of people find it hard to afford London tube fares which are some of the highest in the world.

What is booming in the UK is a recession, high taxes and redundancy.

snappysnappy · 10/05/2012 15:50

Well I am not sure I would call them the wrong ones. However most mothers of 2 or 3 under 5, regardless of their husbands income, dont have the time to pursue these cultural interests.