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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'High fliers' and nannies

999 replies

Takver · 02/05/2012 21:07

I've seen in several places recently (including in threads on here, and for example in this article in last Saturday's Guardian) an assumption that if you are a wealthy and successful family where a nanny provides most of your childcare this is likely to result in your children being less 'stimulated' / likely to become highfliers themselves / otherwise missing out.

Typical quote from the piece linked to: "You assume they'll be intelligent, but you've never wondered how this will come about: when they try to interact with you, you're too busy."

Now maybe I'm overthinking this, but it seems to me that if we go back 40 or 50 years, it would have been the absolute accepted norm in a wealthy family for nannies / other staff to do the vast majority of childcare, and indeed for boys at least to then be sent off to boarding school from age 7 onwards. I can't imagine that anyone would have dreamed that this would in someway disadvantage their children or result in them being less successful themselves when they grew up. Of course back then the women of the family wouldn't have had the option to have top jobs themselves, they would have been occupied with their social functions.

Yet now - when women are able to access high flying jobs - we are told that this pattern of purchased childcare is going to disadvantage the children. And of course the corollary of this assumption is almost invariably that it is the mother - never the father - who is in some way being selfish by devoting their time to work and not childrearing.

I should say that I don't have any direct interest here myself - I am absolutely Ms-hippy-nature-walks-and-crafty-shit-mother but it just seems to me like another cunning way to stick women right back where they belong . . .

OP posts:
libelulle · 07/05/2012 18:01

But I've never been remotely likely to earn a million a year, and you'd better be glad women like me have made that choice, or your high-flying children would end up with no-one teaching them at university. I still don't gt why your fem

Bonsoir · 07/05/2012 18:05

NotSureICanCarryOn - you know, I know I have a very evolved relationship and family Wink. But I do think that it is valuable for other people to know that there are SAHMs out there who have those kind of evolved family lives and that it is possible to live like this... and that feminism can take other, more comfortable (for some) forms, than aping traditional male behaviours, at work and at home.

amillionyears · 07/05/2012 18:06

Xenia, if you are, that is sweet and noble.A better place to do that is where there is no welfare state to speak of.

maples · 07/05/2012 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jifnotcif · 07/05/2012 18:11

Bonsoir you said that in France you can typify people by the care they had in early childhood - I find that very interesting - can you expand?

We went on a Club Med holiday and were horrified at the baby club where they expected you to hand your baby over and walk off. All the babies were screaming and the mothers just went, thinking that was fine!

libelulle · 07/05/2012 18:12

But I've never been remotely likely to earn a million a year, and you'd better be glad women like me have made that choice, or your high-flying children would end up with no-one teaching them at university. Essentially, your message is limited to 'if you are clever enough, your only possible choice in life if you don't want to be in thrall to a man is to go out and earn big bucks. And (presumably), if you are too stupid, then you've no hope at all, sorry.' As a feminist manifesto, that sucks.

libelulle · 07/05/2012 18:14

Sorry for double post, iPhone again.

Bonsoir · 07/05/2012 18:15

jifnotcif - gosh, I'm not sure that MN posts are quite sufficient for that! I am able to expand (at great length) in RL but it is hard to be succinct as there is so much cultural baggage and background to describe. Do you want to come over for tea Wink?

exoticfruits · 07/05/2012 18:16

I don't think that I sacrificed my career, I was lucky enough to have the choice to stay at home when my DCs were young- much more important and enjoyable to me than working in paid employment. I don't think it suits everyone but I have never been interested in a high flying career- it takes up too much valuable time. My DH is not going to disappear abroad with all the money- most of it is in my name anyway!
For what it is worth I have never once in my life discussed washing powder! I buy whatever is on special offer- I have never heard any women discuss it.
Feminism is about choice.

exoticfruits · 07/05/2012 18:18

Xenia misses her main message, which is quite sensible, by spouting utter rubbish with it- quite surprising in an educated woman.

minipie · 07/05/2012 18:19

mmm thanks maples it's the same for us really. Tricky eh.

Xenia I am impressed that you managed to dictate your own hours even when you were junior. I am expected to do the work when the client needs it doing or when the partner deigns to give me his comments when disappearing home for the evening. I am not yet senior enough to dictate my own hours or to set up my own practice. You were clearly exceptional.

I understand your view that women should carry on with their careers in case their DH buggers off in the future and leaves them financially stranded. That is something that bothers me (as well as the feminist/equality/precedent issue) about the fact that we are likely to make the same decision as maples. However I also don't much like the idea of adopting a lifestyle that I think will make us all (DH me and DCs) miserable and/or knackered in the short term, for the sake of safeguarding against a potential negative long term outcome.

CailinDana · 07/05/2012 18:28

Xenia seems to assume that all SAHMs, sorry "housewives" are financially clueless. If my DH died I would actually be fine financially for quite a long time as I would get a substantial lump sum and a pension along with all our remaining income and savings. If DH left me, he would be the one up shit creek because I control all the money. We are married, so in the event of a split money would be shared equally. That would mean I had a comfortable base from which to sort myself out.

I don't get where the idea that SAHMs are dependent on others for money while everyone else isn't comes from. Everyone depends on someone for their money, whether it be an employer, a spouse, the state or a person who is giving them a trust fund or inheritance. Yes, a spouse could leave, but equally a business can go bust, a job can be lost, a trust fund can lose value. No one is guaranteed to have money.

ReactionaryFish · 07/05/2012 18:31

"We are married, so in the event of a split money would be shared equally."
Where do you get that idea from? Aint no such rule.

Bonsoir · 07/05/2012 18:32

minipie - "However I also don't much like the idea of adopting a lifestyle that I think will make us all (DH me and DCs) miserable and/or knackered in the short term, for the sake of safeguarding against a potential negative long term outcome."

I agree wholeheartedly. And of course, perversely, the lifestyle that you describe, to protect women in the event of divorce, is one that might also precipitate it...

wordfactory · 07/05/2012 18:59

Ultimately that's why I gave up my career in the law. For DH and I both to continue would have placed intolerable pressure on us.

We don't live near family, which I think makes a huge difference. And we both had hugely demanding careers, somehting else which makes a huge difference.

That said, I don't buy the idea being asserted by some of the SAHMs here, that no couples can achieve a happy balance where both work oitsdie the home. In fact I am certain that they can. I know some.

For us, we settled on DH continuing with his career. I became a SAHM, but detested it so soon began to work flexibly from home. This set up has worked very well for us, but wouldn't suit everyone I'm sure.

duchesse · 07/05/2012 19:02

Coming in late but just wanted to comment on the article. Quite frankly I would not want to employ a nanny who clearly had no understanding of her role within the family. It is not her remit to judge, merely to look after the children the best she can, which is what her job is. So as soon as she arrives in the morning, she needs to get a pan of porridge on and busy herself with the children rather than hang around mentally taking notes of everything she disapproves of. Either that or get a different job.

CailinDana · 07/05/2012 19:04

Reactionary, all the assets we have are joint and thus would be split 50/50. I wouldn't receive half of his income or anything - that would be another matter.

I don't think it's impossible to achieve a good balance if both parents work. In fact even though I am a SAHM I don't think the model where one parent stays at home all the time and the other works is a good one at all as it means both parents lose out in their own way. The problem is, achieving a balance is very difficult.

CailinDana · 07/05/2012 19:05

So duchesse, employers should be able to dictate what their employees think? Does that apply to all jobs, or just to nannies?

Bonsoir · 07/05/2012 19:06

There are lots of possible ways of achieving equilibrium in a family and that equilibrium will depend on the personalities of those involved as much as all the environmental factors.

duchesse · 07/05/2012 19:08

I think that if you are working in a service industry like childcare, you take conditions as you find them. Ultimately if this nanny's employees could look after their children and work they wouldn't need her. So she plays her part in their family set-up. That part is to look after the children she is employed to look after, not judge their parenting abilities that incidentally they are subcontracting to her 10 hours a day.

duchesse · 07/05/2012 19:10

I'm a service-industry worker- self-employed translator. I can't just go to my employer and tell them I don't quite like the document they've sent me and can they please change it a bit to suit me better. My job is to do the best job I can with their document.

LynetteScavo · 07/05/2012 19:12

"if you choose not to cope with work and family beiong hard for a bit and jack it all in and then lose the chance to earn £1m a year for 20 years then that tends to be a silly decision you rregret later when the husband disappears abroad with all the money and leaves you only able to get teaching assistant jobs on the minimum wage"

Thank heavens there are some women who do end up in this pitiful state. - Otherwise the only people available to work as teaching assistants would have low IQ's, according to Xenia's model.

wordfactory · 07/05/2012 19:22

I do agree that child hood is a long term thing, and some difficulties are short term and it is well worth waiting them out.

For example, if you choose to give up financial security when your DC are babies, you may very well regret it when they are older and need lots of things...music lessons/sports equipment/books/university fees.

That said, these things are about balance. Sometimes it is worth pressing on through short term problems for long term gain, but sometimes those problems are unbearable, making everyone unhappy. Sometimes those problems aren't going to go away no matter how long you wait.

Each family needs to assess the balance itself.

Unfortuanately far too many women get little say in the balance and are forced into roles that make them unhappy and vulnerable. We need to try to rememeber that every time we bang on about our own circumstances and how jolly perfect they are.

kerala · 07/05/2012 19:24

"There are lots of possible ways of achieving equilibrium in a family and that equilibrium will depend on the personalities of those involved as much as all the environmental factors."

Totally agree Bonsoir. I gave up being a corporate lawyer in the City I could do it but didn't enjoy it and I know that living that life whilst missing out on my DD would have affected my mental health. I would have been miserable keeping that going to guard against the remote possibility that DH would run off with his secretary didn't make sense to me. I wanted to be at home with DD and have never been happier in my life. A friend that hadn't seen me since my working in the City days was shocked at the change in me - change for the good.

My sister and friends work full time and good for them. Not in punishing City jobs though. Am sure that if you have good quality childcare DC will be absolutely fine. My sister has an excellent nanny. I am at home (temporarily and still earning money whilst being at home) for selfish reasons. Do find Xenias vitriol odd though surely if one is intelligent and confident in ones choices railing against those that make different choices doesn't make sense. Still takes all sorts.

Bonsoir · 07/05/2012 19:32

"For example, if you choose to give up financial security when your DC are babies, you may very well regret it when they are older and need lots of things...music lessons/sports equipment/books/university fees."

Financial security and profit on short term earnings are two very different things, though. Many mothers work at no gain or at loss to the family as a whole for financial security. They won't be paying for university fees, just accruing a pension.