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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What we teach our daughters......

37 replies

Northernlurker · 23/04/2012 18:35

This is a link to a case going through the courts at the moment concerning a 20yr old man accused of strangling his girlfriend. His parents are co-accused for perverting the course of justice by helping him conceal the alleged crime.
Presented in evidence have been a number of instances where he displayed 'red flag' behaviour - he threatened to kill her and talked about violence towards her. He was violent towards her in front of friends. He was controlling and possessive. The case is continuing, there is no verdict yet so I can't draw any links between that behaviour and the outcome but the detail as given runs along very familiar lines.

It made me think - what I have taught my daughters about this? I have, I hope, taught them to be assertive and independant - work in progress as they are 14, 11 and 5. But what have I said specifically about this dynamic in relationships? My parents never talked to me about this. I'm not sure it would ever have occurred to them. Everything I know and believe regarding acceptable behaviour in a relationship is garnered a bit from a teacher at school, from university and from reading books and the internet.
So I got them in (the older two) and we talked about it. I hope I haven't freaked them out, don't think I have but at least now they are equipped for themselves and their friends. I wish I could take it for granted they will never meet a violent and abusive man. I wish I could take it for granted that if they do they will 'just know' to get away BUT history tells me I can't assume either of those things and so I have acted. It makes me think though - what do we teach our daughters? How do we get it right between teaching them to trust and teaching them to protect themselves.
The victim in this case was three years older than my big girl. The accused called her a whore and threatened to kill her. Can we equip our daughters enough that they make choices that keep them safe? And that's totally leaving aside what we teach our sons. As I only have girls I am totally unequipped to comment on that one. Have I done enough? (probably not)Could I do more? (what?)

Just wanted to share my musings.

OP posts:
Ilovedaintynuts · 24/04/2012 11:44

KRITIQ you are absolutely right. I suppose what I'm saying is that it's incredibly difficult to empower girls with words when what they have seen and lived is in opposition to it.
I feel quite despondent about it. If you spend any time on the Relationship board you soon realise how many little boys and girls are growing up seeing abuse as normal Sad

TwllBach · 24/04/2012 11:49

I am reading this thread with interest because I grew up with a father that was abusive towards my brother and my mother, and perhaps EA towards me. I am nearly and haven't lived at home since I was 19. My mother and father split last year and it caused me to reflect on our childhood. My mother will always say that we had a wonderful childhood and my father was a brilliant dad, but I vividly remember my dad beating my brother (two years younger than me) for next to nothing. One particular incident involved my father grabbing my five year old brother by the wrist, swinging him from the chair at the dinner table, holding him in the air and beating him around the legs and backside with the other arm. My mother stood and watched while I leapt off my chair and onto my fathers back, screaming at him and hitting him until he stopped.

My father is a sulker and would regularly refuse to talk to anyone. Two days of silence and my mother and brother were apologising to him and living a happy family life, while I refused to do so. A week later and my mother made me apologise. After that I remember there being several incidents where I would have a differing opinion to my dad and he would refuse to talk to me for weeks on end.

My mother always made excuses for him "he's of a different generation" (he's 14 years older than her) "his father was Muslim and beat his children and mother" "DB just winds him up" "we shouldn't make him angry" I mean WTF? And now, as they have split, she has hinted at physical and sexual abuse too.

I have cut my father out of my life after a very prolonged period of giving him as much leeway as possible, but he would not change. I am angry with him for not being the kind of dad other girls had and (sadly) I am angry at my mother for allowing that sort of behaviour to carry on, because the older I get, the more I can see the impact that it has had on myself and the affect that it has had on my brother.

I want to be able to show any children I have, regardless of sex, that you Do Not hurt other people. You Do Not sneer at them or ignore them and you certainly Do Not Hurt them. I want to be able to teach my children that it is ok not to make peace with someone if that person is hurtful. I want to be able to teach them that they do not have to apologise to someone who is unreasonable just to make things comfortable and instead they should jsut walk away, because they have every right to be the person that they want to be and to voice their opinions in a constructive way without fear of violence or emotional abuse.

I realise that this is a bit of an essay, but I feel so strongly about it and worry that because of the upbringing I have had, I will make the same msitakes as my parents, and that horrifies me.

bamboobutton · 24/04/2012 11:49

elephant- phew was worried i'd get a telling offGrin. i get the guilt "but he's their grandfather!!!" whine moan etc but know deep down this is the right thing to do and will never back down.

had mil say to dh "she can't keep this up forever", wanna bet, mil??

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/04/2012 11:57

Good for you, Bamboo. Come to think of it, I suppose my mother was doing for us what she wished her own mother had done for her :(

grimbletart · 24/04/2012 12:43

Bamboo - good for you. In effect you are practising what I said in my post - zero tolerance. I agree with what everyone has said about relationships, role models, examples, ensuring their sons respect women as autonomous individuals etc. but the bottom line has to be zero tolerance from grandmothers, mothers, wives, girlfriends - and decent men. Abusive men have to be shunned as pariahs to change what is all too often seen as merely an aberration of normal behaviour Until that happens we are tinkering round the edges.

bamboobutton · 24/04/2012 14:05

grimbletart- thats the trouble with my female inlaws. mil and sil (and dhAngry ) actually went to fils house and cleaned up the blood from when he almost beat his last partner to deathShock[anger] everything was swept under the rug and fil never had to face any consequences, until i let him know that i knew everything.
as i said, i suspect fil is NPD and everyone was so... i dunno, scared of him? warped by their violent upbringing?.. that they happily did it and never questioned or challenged what he had done. mil even goes and cleans fils house!!

which is why the kids can see mil and sil but contact will kept to a minimum, i don't want ds and dd to be some more of fils handmaidens.

Sanjeev · 24/04/2012 14:07

The thing is Grimble, there always seems to be another woman willing to take up with the abuser - 'ooh, I can change him...'. I think that abusers do not change because they do not see the need to.

Northernlurker · 24/04/2012 17:55

Interested to see some replies.
I absolutely agree that it is the violence in men that should change but in the absence of a miracle cure for that, I think we just have to work with what we have. I can't raise a decent and gentle man because I only have girls. All I can do is equip them to ensure they can practice zero tolerance in their relationships and help their friends do the same.
I told them that wherever they are on the Earth, whatever had happened in their lives, however many dcs, however many years they'd been married there would never be a time that I wouldn't help them get out of a relationship if they needed to get out. I know Society conspires to keep women in dangerous relationships. All I can do is draw a line in the sand and say it won't happen to my daughters if I can help it. That's a sort of zero tolerance isn't it?

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/04/2012 18:39

"You can't change him" is a crucial message that my dad impressed upon me (he worked with young people a lot) and it definitely helps.

KRITIQ · 24/04/2012 19:42

Sanjeev, I would suggest that the belief that women can "make a bad man good" with love and attention is a very, very strong message within the social conditioning of women and girls.

I agree that abusers don't change because they see no benefit in doing so. Why should they if there are no real disincentives? The criminal justice system is very meh about punishment for perpetrators of violence against women. The general public are quick to excuse abusive behaviour and blame victims for "making them do it."

But, it's far too simplistic (and dare I say victim-blaming,) to suggest that individual women somehow have the "power" to stop men's violence.

chipmonkey · 25/04/2012 13:32

I also think there is a culture in movies/novels where the hero is tall, dark and moody. Since when was being moody a good thing? Red flag as far as I'm concerned!

MsAnnTeak · 25/04/2012 20:42

Bossofme

"I don't really know what the cycle breakers are though - what makes some people repeat the pattern and others change it?"

When the penny eventually drops, is an expression we would use. Unfortunately for some it probably doesn't or they feel it's too late. Once enlightened with a great deal of time, effort and support from those around it can be achieved.

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