Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

605 replies

oilfilledlamp · 17/04/2012 22:49

Please forgive the intrusion but I've been out tonight and only recently got back. I wanted to respond to MadWomanintheattic earlier when she posted

"If I were an mtf trans (pre op or post op) the last place I'd want to fetch up is in a women's refuge, because of the potential for making other people feel ill at ease. But nothing is clear cut, really.

How often does this happen, really? Has there been any research into prevalence and motivation?

OP posts:
hathorkicksass · 19/04/2012 14:47

You don't have to tell someone you identify with them to feel compassion for them do you?

Otherwise, when I have compassion for DP because of something that happened to him because he's a bloke, then am I saying I'm a bloke?

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 14:49

How is the situation analagous to black people and Enoch Powell? If somebody was saying they were going to end segregated facilities for men and women, and women then objected, that migfht have some vague parallel.

By your argument, why should men be denied access to women's changing rooms? Just because some men are criminals it doesn't mean they all are.

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 14:50

No, Hathor, but your DH is not asking you to identify with him. Transwomen (and ciswomen) are claiming that I share an identity with them. If I say otherwise, that would be considered by many to be transphobic.

hathorkicksass · 19/04/2012 14:53

I think it depends on how you define identity.

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 14:59

This is the closest analogy I can think of. There are gay men and gay women. Both have to deal with prejudice, but one group (men) experiences privelege that the other group (women) does not have.

Now, gay men will set up groups that are for them only. This is partially because they want to discuss things that apply only to them, and partly because as they have a group identity they want to socialise together. Gay women do not have a go at these groups. They do not insist that gay men always include them. They understand that gay men may have something in common with each other that they do not have with gay women.

So why can't the situation be the same with trans women. There can be situations for all people who consider themselves women (just as there are events for all gay people) and situations that are just for women who are not trans (I will not give this group a name, because naming them seems to cause offence). Why is it so wrong for women who are not trans to want to have their own spaces in the same way that there are spaces for gay men?

MooncupGoddess · 19/04/2012 15:00

"Why should I pretend to have an identity that I don't have?"

I just don't understand this - who is asking you to pretend to have an identity you don't have?

Anniegetyourgun · 19/04/2012 15:01

It's the argument that cis-women have the right not to share space with transgender women because it makes them feel bad. Powell's argument was that his constituents had the right not to be surrounded by black neighbours because it made them feel bad. He was wrong... and I think, though am not totally convinced, that the first argument is wrong too. It's "they can't come here because I don't want them to", not a sound practical reason why they ought not to be allowed to. Does that not make sense?

Hullygully · 19/04/2012 15:01

I think we had reached the point where we were saying that perhaps everyone could have their own spaces (or was that the other thread?!)

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 15:02

The law. It segregates me in various situations, hospitals and so on, with other members of an identity group. It decides who is and is not a member of that group.

Hullygully · 19/04/2012 15:02

No this one.

yy, own spaces perhaps while a way forward is groped towards.

hathorkicksass · 19/04/2012 15:03

And the law says that transgendered individuals become their new sex under the GRA.

MooncupGoddess · 19/04/2012 15:04

But you're not pretending anything, are you? I can see that you feel that there are some people legally identified as women who you don't accept are women, but how does that actually affect you in any way?

(Unless you were a rape victim or similar who wants to be in a space with born women only - I totally understand that. But you still wouldn't be pretending anything.)

Hullygully · 19/04/2012 15:05

Can trangendered individuals have their sex changed under the law without altering their genitals? (probs something I should know)

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 15:05

But I'm not talking about cis women. I don't know any women who consider themselves cis.

How are the two things comparable? White people don't have any things in common that they might need to discuss or do in a solely white situation. What could those things possibly be?

But I might want to discuss things about my body with people who other people who have the same kind of body.

But then we just go around in circles because people will deny that any such thing as a female body exists.

hathorkicksass · 19/04/2012 15:07

As far as I know Hully, and I'm not an expert, but under the GRA they go in front of a panel, and they don't have to have changed their genitals that I can see in the statute.

But someone else may know better than me.

Hullygully · 19/04/2012 15:07

The kkk wouldn't agree with you, Sea

hathorkicksass · 19/04/2012 15:07

White people may want to discuss their experience of living as a white person in multicultural Britain in 2012.

Should that be allowed?

Hullygully · 19/04/2012 15:09

They might want to discuss how they are under siege from terrorist Muslamics.

Oh wait. They do. EDL, BNP etc

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 15:12

MG, well presumably it has the same impact on me as it does on transwomen.

I feel I have a certain identity. I want to be in spaces with people with only that identity.

A transwoman feels she has a certain identity. She wants to be in spaces with people with only that identity.

It either has an important impact on both of us or neither of us. Either both of us should have the right to have group spaces solely for a group we identify with or neither of us should and all segregated spaces should be stopped.

Either way, it has nothing to do with integration of ethnic groups. Trans rights don't create more gender integration. We are still segregated; it is just that the definition of who is in each group has changed.

Anniegetyourgun · 19/04/2012 15:15

I don't "consider myself cis" either, and don't like the term especially, but it was appropriate in context, IMO. I originally just put "women" there but felt it needed to be clarified.

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 15:16

Well yes, and that is the issue being presented here. Spaces for women who are not trans is being compared to a desire for racism.

So do you think that if I want to discuss or do specific things to do with my cervix, or to do with breastfeeding with other people that have the same body as me, I am asking for something equivalent to the BNP or the KKK?

Do you genuinely think I am pretending to feel a certain way about my body just to promote transphobia?

SeaHouses · 19/04/2012 15:18

If there is an issue of prejudice towards transwomen promoted by cis women, that is between them.

It isn't analagous with other women.

It is like blaming atheists for Christian attacks on Muslims.

OTheHugeManatee · 19/04/2012 15:19

Yes, but do you really need a whole 'space' for discussing your cervix, where transwomen are expressly denied entry? Lots of women just manage ok just meeting their mates over coffee or whatever, don't they?

Anniegetyourgun · 19/04/2012 15:23

I want to discuss my body with people who have the same type of body as me as well. So, only women with breasts above G may join, and mind, they have to be original G+, no boob jobs allowed. If they're too pert though, they're out. Gotta have a decent degree of droop.

Where do you stop with segregation anyway? To me, legal definitions will do to be going on with. I don't particularly mind whether the woman I'm talking to had periods when she was 13, as long as she's a woman now. She definitely won't have had all the same life experiences as I have, that's guaranteed. Some of them will match, some won't.

Oh wait, this point has already been made about a dozen times on this thread alone...

Anniegetyourgun · 19/04/2012 15:25

No, I don't think you're pretending anything. The little old lady who wouldn't rent her house to "blacks" wasn't pretending either. She genuinely felt intimidated by them. That still doesn't mean the law should have backed her up. She should have been made to feel protected, as far as possible, but her neighbours shouldn't all have been bussed out and white ones brought in just to make her comfortable.