Mums mums mums. What about Dads?

[Msfickle]

Seems to me that society is just a bit obsessed with motherhood as opposed to parenthood.

I'm pregnant with our first child and am going straight back to work (I'm the high earner) while my husband gives up work to be a sahd.

People can't get their head around it though. It's as if people think I'm some kind of weird alien. Is it only mothers that can nurture babies?

So women can't be super amazing for doing all the hard boring donkey work day after day after year? Some would say so!
I wouldn't necessarily but it's not so far fetched. Double standards work both ways of course.

Plus he's not super amazing because he's doing the work, people can be amazing in general.

A friend of mine went back to work 2 weeks after giving birth while her husband stayed at home - she expressed for the first 6 months (plus direct from the boob feeding in the evenings) and it worked well - she was rather shattered though.

The whole thing with men earning more therefore it makes sense for women to stay at home will perpetuate itself unless things like equal parental leave (or rather the option to choose who takes it) are introduced.

Is it really harder as such for men to go part time, or are they just less likely to even ask for it in the first place for fear of negative effect on their career?

It's not exactly easy for women to go part time and maintain their position on their ladder.

Prepare for your clients to react negatively and not believe you will be back at work so soon.

Even now, when my DD is three, every time I travel on business I am told how hard it must be for me not helpful to building a business relationship

you will have an extra challenge in dealing with these attitudes

I think all parents are super amazing, just to clarify ! The OPs DH is just not more special in that regard .

First you can still bf even if you work.

I didn't really mean he was amazing for doing the role. I think I was more referring to the man himself who is pretty amazing and there's really nowt wrong with saying that out loud every now and again.

I certainly don't think I'm amazing or an alien but I think most people in this world seek acceptance of some kind and also to find like minded individuals - surely that's only natural?

Until now I've not met anyone who has done it or that doesnt find it strange/unusual in some way. But hearing everyones thoughts here has definitely given me that extra boost I think I just needed. Surely that's the whole point of these forums?

Sorry - diidn't read thread properly

Agree yes even if you can do a few days OP the colostrum is full of goodness and expressing is hard to begin with but does get easier IME

(btw if you don't want to breastfeed for whatever reason, it doesn't make you a worse mother or anything. Keep an open mind, give it a go if you want to, just pack it in if it isn't for you, but don't let anyone guilt trip you into either direction)

Oh god no, don't do the guilt thing

I combination feed even with the expressing and anyone who wants to wail that giving DS formula makes me a bad mother can bite me

I'll give it a go for a couple of weeks but I certainly won't feel guilty if I can't. My mum didn't breast feed with me and Im one of the healthiest people I know. Again I have my suspicions that it's just another way of putting pressure on mums!

Msfickle, my DH is a SAHD, I work full time. My child is v happy and it all works well.

One thing that has helped is that he is really happy in female company, so he went to all the baby music, tumble time etc. etc. He had to put up with a lot of chat about sore nipples and stretch marks but has made some great friendships.

All the best for the rest of your pregnancy and enjoy your new baby x

Thank you Daisy

MsFickle you are NOT alone!

Tangent: I went back to work when DS was 6weeks old and fed him for over a year. My work supported expressing, some are better than others, I did it because it was working, so kept doing it, etc. Definitely, definitely dont get pushed into it but you might end up finding it easier than the alternative, like me! H

appy to talk more on PM if you like.

A friend of mine in London has a set up whereby the dad has been the stay at home parent for their family: they now have a three yr old DD and a fairly new DS. my friend has bf'd throughout, only stopping with the DD when she reached two, and at that it was mostly so they could TTC again I think. So it must have worked reasonably easily and well for her too. It's true you don't tend to hear that many stories of it working this way round, especially from people you know personally.

Ps the other thing is that even though you will presumably continue to get reactions of incredulity and disbelief, you will also be functioning as a really important role model for your friends who have children in the future. DP and I didn't want to go down the SAHD route but having this powerful example in front of us was part of what made us keen on us both going part time at work, which we might not have thought much about otherwise.

Good point comixminx. And also hopefully for my daughter. Amazing as my mum is, she never worked and I always felt that I lacked a strong female role model in that sense. Although of course she has set a great example to me in how to be a caring mother. Perhaps it's also my background - I've experienced alot of the same reactions throughout my life. First to go to uni, first to leave the town I grew up in so it etc.

If your mum showed you how to be a caring mother, surely she was a strong female role model? She has taught you to seek your own independence; you are who you are in part because of the care she gave you.

I want to thunk my head against the wall for the whole parenting debate, and I'm not sure how to articulate why. Why is a working woman a better role model than a SAHM? It in part shows that we have bent to the ideal that existing within the capitalist sphere is the golden goal for women.

I don't know what the answer is. I suppose I want barriers broken down that will always be there.

BUT it pisses me off that their is an automatic assumption that the mother is the 'main' parent.

I think if you only need one salary, then you go with the highest income. It is common sense. I am the main earner and would love DH to be SAHD (I'm lazy and it would make my life easier), but we need both salaries. I think he would be SAHD, although it does concern me that he needs more in his life too. He knows that being at home would drive me insane, but I think he would be the same. However, if he wanted to do it and we could afford it, I would be more than happy with that. It is lucky for you in the respect he wants to be at home, not because he's a man, but because I think it's lucky to find anyone who would want to commit to that role. It is so much easier to have childcare in the home, and to be able to get up and get on without having to faff about sorting everybody. You have somebody you can rely on completely, and that is very lucky, just as men for generations have been very lucky to have women who will take care of the home.

I've just wandered into this thread and made my very random first post in feminism. I so want to engage with this part of MN as I consider myself to be a feminist, but I have no answers and that gets on my nerves.

Hi Kinky. I fully agree on the mum issue and I did say that my mum set a strong example for me in terms of being caring and nurturing. But I do think that we are still not yet on a level playing field and whilst my Mum definitely pushed me to achieve more than she did, her world has become very small because of not working. There are many things she cannot (or will not) do for herself. I do feel as a woman that we need to set strong examples for our daughters of what can be achieved. And its not about capitalism as such. Had she have volunteered her time to charity of bettered herself in terms of learning new skills etc then the example would be the same. The fact is she made motherhood into her life. She lives only for her children. Of course she is a wonderful mother and I love her dearly but I wish she had done more. I think she didn't because she didn't feel she could.

And as for my hubby. Yes on the one hand I perhaps should count myself 'lucky' that I have a good man. But the desire for children is a mutual one and so why shouldn't he be willing to give up work to take on that role?

As others have said before in this thread, we need to stop pigeonholing mums and dads into specific parenting roles.

I went to the gym today and the instructor asked me if I was giving up work altogether. When I told her my husband would be the one giving up work her reply was "so is he the more nurturing one of the two of you then?". Point proven! The stereotypes still exist!

I think the idea of being very lucky to have a SAHP is an interesting one.

If it all goes smoothly, and that SAHP finds they can enjoy their role, maintain social outlets and personal development - great!

But lots of WOHPs come home to a knackered spouse who has not had a break all day or night, chores still to be done etc. And in the longer term, being a SAHP can erode confidence, I know it damaged mine. The impact on the relationship between the parents is also an issue - DH's career was taking off, and everything in my life featured poo, puke or the supermarket. We had less in common than before, and it changed the dynamic of our relationship. And that's before you get on to the long term impact on your DH's career, and your pensions.

I don't mean to discourage you OP, it can work out brilliantly, but it is worth considering the downsides. There is an excellent thread somewhere on MN about whether those who had made the SAHP choice regretted it, it makes interesting reading, whether it turned out for better or worse.

I totally agree with what you say about your Mum MsFickle; there are many women who don't expand their horizons beyond their children and I can understand why you would find her less of a role model because of that. My exMIL was extremely clingy to DDs dad because of this. I felt very sorry for her. He'd left home, and she was so lost. It is sad, and it is, as you say, because they don't think they can. My mum used to take courses when she was a SAHM, and then eventually worked PT. She would have been happy being at home - I think work was out of necessity - but she always did more. It does make me sad that she was told at 15 her family couldn't afford for her to stay on in education. I think she would love to HE, but suspect she doesn't feel capable. A really interesting point.

I didn't mean you are 'lucky' to have a good man: I meant, as Holey says, anyone who has a SAHP - somebody willing to give up an exterior life for the domestic drudge - is lucky. It has nothing to do with gender, in my eyes. It is about having a partner willing to say they will put their life beyond the kids on hold. It is a huge sacrifice and you are lucky to have a partner willing to do that because relying on childcare outside the home always adds an extra element of stress into your working day. Dh was moaning about work again today and I said we could manage if he wants to be a SAHD, but I think he likes going on holiday too much! Plus, I know him and I know he would miss work.

It saddens me that many women still SAH because they think they have to; as your instructor said, that if they don't, they will be seen as cold or heartless. If they want to great, but if they don't then they shouldn't feel that they have to. It is bloody frustrating.

It would drive me bananas; they all deserve medals.

Holey - I''m not sure whether that is really luck to have a SAHP - I've been at home twice for 9 months of mat leave - helped the breastfeeding and made financially more sense (more SMP than wage minus childcare minus commuting cost), but certainly wasn't easy for either me or my husband. E.g. I find it more difficult to find a fair divide of chores when one is working and the other at home.

Also a redundancy situation for my husband meant that for a while we had to think about whether we needed to cancel childcare and have him be a SAHD, because if he hadn't found a job by the time my mat leave ended we couldn't have afforded it any other way. Thankfully he found new work relatively quickly, but both of us dreaded the idea.

We both value having an independent partner who shares all responsibilities and costs equally, we prop each other up in times of need, but that's very different to have that set up by choice.

Having a cleaner makes things easier in that respect I have to say!

I do also think that some people quite like being at home and almost prefer it to working.

I'm definitely more predisposed to working than my husband. He's south American and very much had to adapt himself to the level of professionalism required of him here. He has adapted but in truth he still finds the early mornings and 40 hour week hard. Whereas if I'm not occupied every second of every day I feel lazy. In that respect I also feel that this arrangement will work perhaps better than most.

Suffered another set back today. Was thrilled at the change in paternity leave rights but discovered that its only eligible from 20 weeks after the birth of the baby essentially meaning that there is an expectation on the mother to do the first 5 months. It seems equal isn't really equal!

That's what I'm trying to get at Widow, albeit possibly not in the best way. I am in awe of anyone who would choose the lifestyle of SAHP. It is incredibly tough. On the days when DH has stayed in with DS as child minder is ill, I have loved being able to get myself up, go to work, stay as long as I need to get everything done: all responsibility was taken off me and I could totally focus on my work. It was luxury. But I would never want DH to do that all the time, unless he felt a burning desire to be a SAHD as I know he would feel as drained and frustrated by it as I would. That's why I think it is 'lucky' if you have a parent who wants to be in the home, because I'm guessing there aren't that many people out there who would really enjoy the role.

But I am judging this completely from my own perspective of finding prolonged periods of time in the home really, really hard. I thrive in the workplace. I love being a mum, but I handle life better when I'm at work. I've been stuck at home for long periods of time over the past 18 months as DD is seriously ill. So, I have been a SAHM. I went from working stupid hours and finally making some leaps in my career, to being a carer and spending much of my time nursing/tidying/attending hospital appointments. And it has been soul destroying, not just because of DDs illness, but also because I feel my identity and everything I worked so hard to achieve slipping through my fingers. I know that sounds incredibly selfish of me, but I can't help feeling very fed up about it all. So, as I said before, I am in awe of anybody who chooses this lifestyle because it is really hard, especially if you are isolated.

I also understand what you say about fair divide of chores. I would imagine this remains an issue for many parents, even if both work FT. There is still an assumption that mum does it.