Negotiating feminist agitation within a hetrosexual relationship

[Thistledew]

My DP is one of the good guys. He is kind and respectful. He treats me (and women in general) as his equal. He does his fair share of the housework and we have discussed the possibilities of him either working part time or being a SAHD when we have children, so that I can focus on my career, which I love.

One way in which we differ is that he is quite self-contained in his world view. Life has been pretty good to him, and he is very comfortable in it, which means that he has little interest in thinking critically about why things are the way they are, and whether anything could be done differently.

He is broadly supportive of the feminist cause, and although he is guilty of placing more emphasis on the legal gains towards equality that have been made, rather than the social ones, this seems to be because he has not been confronted with the effects of social inequality, and has just never had cause to think about it. When I have pointed out things to him, he has been quick to appreciate what I have shown him: for example, he used to watch pornography, but after I pointed out to him how damaging it is to individual women and women as a whole, he completely changed his view of it.

But yet, earlier this week, I re-posted on Facebook this article - 5 ways modern men are trained to hate women after I saw it on one of my friend's feeds. DP was really upset. We had a big discussion about the article. He said that he felt it was unnecessarily aggressive and would in fact have the effect of alienating men from the feminist cause. His view is that the pace of change towards equality is steady and progressing, and that it is counter productive to try to force a big change, as it could create a backlash amongst men who would see it as a gender war, rather than something that benefits both sexes.

My first thoughts were that DP reacted this way as a result of unconscious male privilege. That the 'good guys' still expect women to be explicit in making it clear that we could not possibly mean them when we criticise patriarchal attitudes - amounting to a sense of deference to their position. Also, that even amongst the 'good guys' they are still shocked to hear a strong female voice that uncompromisingly criticises male behaviour, and are made to feel uncomfortable by it even if they agree with what is being said.

However, as we talked it through, DP said that the main thing was that he felt very hurt, and his first thought on reading the article was "I hope that she does not think that I am like that".

I am confident that this was a genuine feeling of hurt on the part of DP, and not any attempt to manipulate. So my question is, how can we as feminists best try to tackle the patriarchy, without hurting the decent men in our lives, but without compromising on our beliefs and what we need to say? Has anyone else had a similar issue in their relationship, and if so, how did you deal with it?

'I would hope that I would support my wife if she were guilty of racism.' - I hope you meant 'if she were a victim of racism'!

Again, you're talking about lecturing all the time

OK, the Palestinian situation is close to your heart - imagine that your partner is an Israeli Jew who sees nothing wrong with what's happening, even when it's pointed out to them. Now imagine that you're a Palestinian married to such a person. You wouldn't have a problem with that?

inde I think it's important to make a distinction between historical issues and ongoing ones.

If you accept that we live in a patriarchy (i.e. that our social structure and culture is male-dominated and affords men considerably more advantages than women), then to some extent any man who doesn't actively fight against female oppression or for female rights, is guilty of taking advantage of the status quo and being complicit in the ongoing discrimination against women.

Obviously this is not the same as personally being a rapist, a woman-beater or even a sexist dinosaur who thinks that a man could do the job better than a woman. But in all forms of abuse anyone who doesn't seek to stop it is complicit.

There are degrees of course and this is a world of shades of grey. Many men may not join a feminist group but will counter sexist jokes in the workplace or censure a man who beats his wife. Sadly, many more laugh along or say nothing (or sympathise that they can understand how it happened).

Thankyou Sunshine, I was just trying to work out how to say something similar - you've explained it very clearly

Thanks POBG for pointing out and clarifying what I meant in that post. I did of course mean it the way you say.
I see male violence as a big problem and do feel strongly about it. I have never though worked with or socialised with men who think it is OK though.
On other issues, in the job of work I now do I work 50/50 with women which is a new experience for me as I used to work in a job that historically was almost exclusively male (not now though). We all get on great but without going in to details we sometimes do things that the women mostly don't like doing. My female boss even made it clear to me that sometimes she expected the men to do the things the women don't like (mostly involving driving but that is part of our job). My point is that we live in a sexist world and not everybody gets as annoyed with the small things as you feminists. Also I think women are 100% equal to men but I don't think the differences in attitudes between men and women can be completely explained by culture.

inde it wouldnever cross my mind to be violent to a woman

Sorry, inde that's exactly the kind of thing we mean - being told which bits of feminism are important and how to do it better and - most importantly - without upsetting men

Another point I could make is that historically the village where my DW was brought up the men were expected to go down the mines whereas the women worked in clothes factories or became secretaries etc.. Sexism didn't all work in the males favour.

Julia Scurr I was making a point not expecting a medal or thinking I was great for not wanting to hit or rape women any more than I would expect a medal for not being empted to burgle my neighbours houses. Please don't misrepresent my posts.

It should also be perfectly clear Julia that I am not telling you how to think.

If he's bringing it back to his hurt feelings rather than noticing how badly men as a group treat women, then he's not acting like a good guy, and as you note acting out of male privilege.

The article wasn't feminist though, and wasn't written by a woman, so all the stuff he's saying about feminism alienating men doensn't really apply.

If he and his wife have an equal relationship perhaps he feels he has been lectured once too often. There should be give and take in a marriage and both partners should be sensitive to each others feelings.

My point is that we live in a sexist world and not everybody gets as annoyed with the small things as you feminists. Also I think women are 100% equal to men but I don't think the differences in attitudes between men and women can be completely explained by culture.

You come across as thoroughly complacent. How does the quote go ... All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

(I have deliberately bolded 'men' in this quote because they are the ones with the power - the ball is very firmly in their court on all sorts of feminist issues.)

Sexism didn't all work in the males favour You're quite correct, the patriarchy hurts men too, although I doubt the clothing workers and secretaries were earning anything near a miner's wage.

inde regarding mining and sexism working against men, there's a good article (which I can't find a good link to) by Jane Humphries about the 1842 Mines Act and how it defended male privilege within capitalism

Sexism didn't all work in the males favour

Sexism doesn't work in anyone's favour. Women are denied opportunities and men are denied their humanity.

Feminists don't point out the shortcomings of sexism to 'have a go at men' and nor do we go around looking for 'small things' to get bothered about.

Your comments reminded me of this blog post.

Sexism and misogyny does actually work in men's favour. They gain huge benefits from it. It's why they don't want to give it up and why we still need feminism.

Perhaps I am complacent PPG. I do care about social injustice but sometimes you have to screen out some of the wrongs, and I'm not just talking about sexism, or else you would go insane. Like I say as well i don't think we will ever live in a world were there is no sexism because I don't believe males and females are exactly the same so there will be some expectation of men and women to fulfil different rolls in life.

@Julia Scurr. You might well be right about excluding women from mines was to defend male privilege but personally I wouldn't be absolutely certain based on one persons research. Any more than I would believe the AGW deniers or moon landing deniers based on one article. I'm not trying to be offensive it is just that I take part in many discussions about many subjects on the internet and I know people can find support for any point of view. Anyway what it meant to my wife was that she was not expected to go down the mines which i think we would all agree was a horrible job. The women didn't have any easy time of it either though but they did have better working conditions.

Sexism and misogyny does actually work in men's favour. They gain huge benefits from it.

I should have been clearer - of course men gain enormous opportunities under patriarchy (at women's expense) but I truly believe they lose something very important - authentic relationships and their full emotional expression. I think most men live with a constant fear of being found out that they are not 'man enough' (hence the widespread fragility of most male egos and the sheer panic many experience when anything suggests they are not the sole focus of women's attantion)

I'm not saying it's equal - far from it - but I think feminism offers a beter future for both women and men. Yes men would lose their unearned privileges but what they would gain would be so much more.

Well they've made the calculation and they think it's worth it. So I don't think we should be wasting too much sympathy on them.

On the other hand women and girls have no choice. We're stuck with this system until we are finally able to overthrow it.

We men are not the calculating creatures you think we are Nyac. We all, men and women, act in ways based on our own view of life. Is my female boss wrong to expect more of me on a small amount of occasions? I'm sure you woukd think so but I don't and the women I work with don't seem to either.

I don't think we should be wasting too much sympathy on them

LOL! I don't.

But I do think it is in women's best interests if men change faster and they might be more inclined to do that if they could see some benefit in doing so.

Why do you think your boss is right to expect more of you because you are a man?

I didn't say you were calculating Inde, that's just twisting my words, I said men as a group had made a calculation that patriarchy benefits them and they want to keep it.

I don't see any men working to overthrow male supremacy and patriarchy. Do you? It's been left up to women by and large.

I just take it as normal POBG. The women are not slacking whilst I am doing my job. I hope nothing I am saying though is taken to be detrimental to the feminist cause in general because I think there are many battles that need to be fought. And I am not trying to tell you which battles are more important. I am just trying to add a male perspective to some of the more minor issues.
Anyway my dw is shooting daggers at me because I am not pulling my weight today so I will have to withdraw from this discussion.

Normal? Really? I suppose it's quite useful in a way that you've stopped pretending you think men and women are 100% equal.

This ...

And I am not trying to tell you which battles are more important. I am just trying to add a male perspective to some of the more minor issues.

... is a bit self-contradictory isn't it?

Did you read the blog post JosephineB linked to?

back for a mo while we have lunch.

I think men and women can be slightly different and still both expect the same respect and equal rights. For instance I doubt there will ever be as many long distance women truck drivers as men but I would 100% support a woman's right to do the job.
On your second point you can read it the way you have or the way I meant it. Which wasn't the way you are taking it. I would never try to say for instance that there was a man's point of view to a woman's right to say no. It should be exactly the same as a woman's pov.
On a completely different issue though I think when it is argued that men are all part of some conspiracy to keep women down I think I do have a right to respond. Sometimes when my wife asks me to do something she doesn't like doing and I jokingly say "why me" she will say "your the man". She is not really a feminist but very pro women's rights so I don't think she is part of the conspiracy. The women I work with and think are great don't seem to expect men and women's roles to be exactly the same. I don't think they are part of a conspiracy any more than I am.