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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does "Just Say No" Rape awareness work......

119 replies

lenak · 29/03/2012 22:52

or does it actually make it more difficult for women to say no and give men who rape a get out?

Just after some opinions as an essay I am currently writing for uni has piqued my interest in the subject.

I am studying Discourse Analysis and in particular am currently looking at Sociolingusitics.

On the one hand, there is the argument that there are different 'genderlects' and that the genders can hear and mean things differently, thus the need to teach women to 'just say no' as this is clear and prevents any misunderstanding due to differences in genderlect understanding. This has led to the development of Just Say No campaigns. The researcher who argues for the differences in genderlect understanding is a feminist who has been instrumental in the development of some of these Just say No courses.

On the other hand there is the argument that in human communication, rejections and refusals are commonly delayed and indirect and follow a typical pattern which generally includes delay in responding, some kind of prefacing of the refusal?, a palliative remark, and some kind of account aimed at softening, explaining, justifying, excusing, or redefining the rejection. It is important to note that refusals are almost always accompanied by explanations or justifications. This is the usual way that refusals are given and thus are understood by all (with adequate social skills) as refusals. Being direct and 'Just saying No' is unusual and uncomfortable for the person saying no as it doesn't follow the usual route of a refusal.

The promotion of 'Just say No' also provides an excuse for men to say "Well she didn't actually say no" when a woman uses more usual methods of refusal even if he understands these types of refusal perfectly well in his every day life.

The researchers who argue this are also feminists arguing from a feminist perspective.

So who's right? Personally, I think the second view makes more sense, but would be interested in the views of MN.

OP posts:
chibi · 01/04/2012 13:09

i know, it is almost as extremist a position as 'men can not nor should they be expected to be sure that women acually want to have sex with them, so they should just plow ahead and do sex on them regardless'

oh well!

swallowedAfly · 01/04/2012 13:28

i feel quite ill at rape being described as a miscommunication. and quite ill at the idea of academics sitting around mentally masturbating over discourse analysis in the context of rape.

while rome burned and all that.

chibi · 01/04/2012 13:32

anyway how can i possibly be expected to distinguish between

someone who is about to rape you.
Or whom you think is going to rape you.
Or who has frightened you into thinking you are going to be attacked.
or who looks a bit odd and dangerous.
Or who is male and therefore obviously a threat.

the nuances are way too complex. until men go round announcing loudly and unequivocally that they aren't rapists (and, of course following up by not raping) i'm afraid i have no choice but to just shoot shoot shoot

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 01/04/2012 13:34

Surely it's just as easy to teach 'socially impaired' people to look for an enthusiastic 'yes' rather than the absence of a clear 'no'?

Dustinthewind · 01/04/2012 13:38

It is one strategy. Teach him to be absolutely passive in his relationships and make sure that all sexual action is initiated by the female.
Which is where the Valentine's day thing went wrong for the girl in question. Lack of direct initiation and an enthusiastic yes. Pity that she's still sulking over it.

Dustinthewind · 01/04/2012 13:41

Having an older sister helps too, in the discussion and alternative points of view.
Although I'm pleased she's still at the 'say no' stage rather than a shoot first and let fate sort them out.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 01/04/2012 13:42

Asking, 'would you like to have sex with me?' is hardly passive.

Dustinthewind · 01/04/2012 13:44

But it could alarm someone who thought they were just friends, had no idea that he was thinking of them in that way and then spoil the friendship and trust.
Safer to wait until she says it I think.

solidgoldbrass · 01/04/2012 15:40

Thing is, most men do understand 'No'. They understand reluctance, freezing, moving away, etc. Because most men are not rapists. Most men want a willing and enthusiastic sexual partner, not just a hole to shove their dicks in. The minority of men who are rapists will rape a woman because they have decided to do so. They will consciously choose to set up a situation where they can rape the woman, whether that's offering to walk her home, spiking her drink, isolating her from her friends, going into her house on the pretext of just coming in for coffee, whatever, they will have already decided to rape her long before the rape occurs.

Nyac · 01/04/2012 15:58

I think this is insulting to socially impaired men. Since when were they the rapists in our midst?

The majority of rapists plan their attacks, they know what they are doing, and it has nothing to do with "miscommunication".

Nyac · 01/04/2012 15:59

Echoing SGB there.

solidgoldbrass · 01/04/2012 16:08

I don't know why it seems to be seen as such a weird radical idea to suggest that enthusiastic participation is the minimum you should expect from a sexual partner. If you are having sex and (outside of a previously-negotiated BDSM scenario) the other person is not smiling, expressing appreciation either with moans or by saying 'That's great' or whatever, returning caresses, pressing closer to you.... if none of that is happening then there's something wrong and you need to stop doing sex to that person and ask what the problem is.

Dustinthewind · 01/04/2012 16:17

'I think this is insulting to socially impaired men. Since when were they the rapists in our midst?'

They aren't, and I think I was more worried about the misinterpretation that might take place on the part of the NTs involved. You are assuming that someone on the spectrum would always be able to identify social cues accurately.

Dustinthewind · 01/04/2012 16:22

Anyway, I didn't mean to get the thread sidetracked and into spectrum areas, so I'll take my concerns elsewhere and leave the questions on linguistic discourse analysis to flourish.

solidgoldbrass · 05/04/2012 01:11

Just found this while looking for something else and hope that the OP will find it useful.

swallowedAfly · 05/04/2012 08:18

it's like a bad joke really isn't it? the idea that academics would seriously believe that rape is a communication problem and women just need to communicate better Confused seriously?!?

they know you don't want sex, they carry on because they are a rapist not because they have a communication issue.

it's like a spoof. and they'll be spending valuable funding on this crap.

solidgoldbrass · 05/04/2012 18:04

I'm not sure what the vested interest is in this insistence that all men are rapists ie it's a woman's job to do the right thing and stop a man raping her.
When the truth is that it's a small percentage of men who are rapists, they plan to rape, and they rape a lot of women.

I had a long blog post about this a while ago - basically I have done and often do, all the 'bad' things such as get pissed, wear sexy clothes, go out alone and even snog and fondle men and then say 'stop.' But I haven't been raped because so far I haven;t met a rapist, I've met nice men who want a willing sexual partner and therefore lose interest when told to stop.

Beachcomber · 06/04/2012 08:21

That's an interesting article SGB, thanks.

TrophyEyes · 06/04/2012 08:33

That's exactly it, isn't it, SGB? It's not about what the survivor does; it's about the type of men that the survivor meets. So far, I've been unlucky enough to meet two rapists, and at least two men I believe have the capacity to rape.

Being raped is a passive act. Can we start recognising it as such? Please? Because telling survivors they should have done x, y and z isn't empowering. Instead, it just sends some extremely harmful messages out there.

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