Anyone else hate the word feminity?

[grimbletart]

A hate that word - its very rhythm and cadence irritates the hell out of me.
Go na,na,na,na,na quickly, then do the same with feminity. It's all whimsy mimsy and pathetic sounding. Think Violet Elizabeth Bott for all those who remember reading Just William when we were little.

Now female....that's something else altogether.

Messy We socialize young girls to be feminine yet when they become so we look down on them for being "girly".

Speak for yourself. Not all of us do. Some of us tell our daughters to stand up for themselves, be themselves and not to pay the patriarchy's game. And if more of us did there would be fewer of them feeling they "had to use the tools at their disposal" to quote Nyac.

Violet Elizabeth Bott was direct. She knew what she wanted and was prepared to use threats to get it.

I think you've imbibed sexist values. Feminism isn't about despising women who act in feminine ways, it's about fighting the men who oppress us.

"Not all girls were oppressed into it even in Just Wiliam's time"

So what? Most were and still are. If you escaped it, lucky you, but there's no need to despise women and girls who were.

Sorry OP! Meant "we" as in "society in general" - not us personally - that wouldn't be very feministy would it?

There is NOTHING wrong with being girly. There is nothing wrong with wearing pink, or having unfeasibly long finger nails. There is nothing wrong with being a SAHP, or nursery worker, or carer. All of these are valid choices. The ONLY thing that is wrong is the system that says these choices are worth shit.

Whimsy, mismy, pathetic sounding , wuzzy, feeble and bleugh were the words I used.

Nowhere did I say ?despise? I do wish you would stop putting words into my mouth.

You ignore that I said that female sounded strong and in your face.

BTW it was not ?lucky? that I escaped oppression- it was just that I wouldn?t bloody well put up with it and that is the exact opposite of imbibing sexist values. Imbibing sexist values is putting up with patriarchal oppression.

Portofino: I agree - nothing wrong with any of the things you say - they are all valid choices and I have done all of them (except nursery worker) in my time. In fact, I've just had to go and cut down one of my proudly long fingernails as I've split it horribly .

There is surely a lot more wrong with masculinity than femininity.

And you did suggest you hated femininity, OP. It is in the thread title.

Oh the individualist form of feminism. I see. The one where you look down on women who don't manage to escape oppression and feel smug about yourself because you did, because apparently it's just a matter of willpower. It's not, it's luck. Funny how that kind of "feminism" is all about condemning women whilst ignoring real harmful behaviour towards women by men.

No you didn't use the word "despise" but that's what you're doing with the sexist words you used. You're not even accurate. VEB was a strong character.

SeaHouses: please read the title again. It says "Anyone else hate the word femininity?" (except my fingers got tangled and I left out an 'in'!).

Since I don't seem to have made myself clear and have stirred up a hornet's nest, I will try again...

The word femininity suggests to me something weak and wuzzy - rather negative - while the word female suggests something strong and positive.

I prefer to think of women as strong and positive people rather than the opposite.

Hope that clarifies it.

Sigh.

I hate sexism and I especially hate seeing it in the feminism section.

Grimble, femininity and masculinity are sex roles foisted on men and women where men are dominant and women are submissive. They are created by male oppression of women, which has at the base of it male violence towards women, particularly sexual violence. They are part of the sex hierarchy which places men on top and women below. The dominated have to submit, it's what the dominators require.

The problem is not about what women are e.g. feminine or taking part in feminity, it's about the political, social and economic structures that men use to keep women oppressed. Maybe if you start looking at those then in future you'll avoid the sexism that you've displayed here.

Ntac: Now I'm smug am I because I didn't give in to the patriarchy. You know what - the more willpower I showed, the luckier I got. Funny that.

And now you tell me I am ignoring real harmful behaviour towards women by men? You know that, how? Would that be when I supported female colleagues that were being bullied in the workplace? Or perhaps when I supported them through sexual discrimination hearings? Or perhaps it was when I was working in Africa working in the health field with women whose lives had been made living hell by a culture of extreme patriarchy.

So that's the individual form of feminism is it? Fair enough. Personally I call it getting off your backside and doing something about it rather than just venting on a board. (Which I admit I've been doing here )

Nyac - you know nothing about me. Any more than I know about you. Please don't presume.

As for Violet Elizabeth. If you say she was strong fair enough. But I wouldn't want her sort of strength. I don't do manipulative.

Oh and Nyac. Please stop lecturing me about gender politics even if you apparently know everything. Been there, done it, got the tee shirt.

Good night. Off to bed.

I'm talking about your posts, I've said nothing about your life.

They are sexist about the women whose behaviour you don't like.

If you know about the harms of male behaviour then why aren't you saying you have masculinity? Because that's what causes the problems.

That was a Freudian slip - "hate masculinity".

Ok - again to clarify then I must off.......I didn't say I hated the word masculinity because it was not the subject of the thread I started. But, to make you happy Nyac I will say it here.. I hate the word masculinity. It conjures up the opposite of femininity i.e. an image of a knuckle-dragging misogynist. I prefer the word male.

Jeez - I'm losing the will to live here.

Will stop because willful misunderstanding makes me really cross.

grimble - I know what you mean. Feminity is a set of rules for women to follow. It says

"Women, know your place! You may be pretty and gentle, you may be caring and nurturing, you may concern yourself with harmless domestic pursuits, and you may make yourself attractive to men in a way that they will enjoy. But do NOT dare to presume to be other than Feminine. There is no place for the UnFeminine woman in our society".

Female will do just fine as a description. It says what I am without value judgements.

And as for masculinity - it's just as odious a set of chains.

"The problem is not about what women are e.g. feminine or taking part in feminity, it's about the political, social and economic structures that men use to keep women oppressed"

yes. Isn't that what the thread was about in the first place?

It's not willful misunderstanding, unless you didn't actually say this:

"The type of female who stands around fluttering her eyelashes and generally being helpless of course. Bleugh."

"I always picture a woman who would be topple over if someone said 'boo' to her and who stands around fluttering her eyelashes and generally being helpless. Sorry, can't identify with this type of female at all."

This isn't about political analysis of femininity, this is simply denigrating certain women whose behaviour you don't like, whilst ignoring the oppressive structures that ensure that there are women who behave in that way.

No Orm it isn't. It's about criticising women who behave in a "feminine" manner.

Masculinity isn't a set of chains for men, it offers them freedom, privilege and half the population to oppress. It's why they refuse to give it up, and fight women all the way when we work to destroy it.

nyac - I am not sure my eldest son see masculinity in that way at all. He's 15 and struggling to come to terms with being 'a man'.

Once again, this isn't about individuals. Feminism is a class analysis, there will always be exceptions - women who have escaped some sexist oppression, men who don't want to fit into the masculine mould, but overall men have resisted women's liberation at every turn and kept tight hold of the benefits of masculinity. I don't think it's really possible to argue against that.

No, it isn't.

I was simply pointing out that masculinity can be restrictive to men. It suits the patriarchy to have men taking their correct roles just as it suits them for women to be feminine.

Patriarchy is men. It's not something abstract separate from men. Men create it and enforce it and benefit from it.

Looking at the restrictions whilst ignoring the massive benefits patriarchy offers men - benefits they refuse to give up, is approaching this from the wrong end in my view.

This is a bit of a weird thread, sympathy men for the downsides of patriarchy for them (not many) whilst women are being slagged off for acting in the way that patriarchy has prescribed for them. Men aren't oppressed by patriarchy and male supremacy, women are.

nyac - I think some men are oppressed by it. Individual men. They go with the flow because they are trained to do so. Women do the same. And some individual women dislike femininsm as a tool of the patriarchy.

And there are several different people responding to you not 'the thread'. I personally haven't critisised women for being 'feminine'. But I do dislike the concept of rules for women's behaviour that are dictated by a male-dominated society.