Consent - a problematic concept if ever I saw one.

[Beachcomber]

I find the concept of consent, and how it is defined and applied in patriarchy, very problematic.

All sorts of misogyny and abuse is perpetuated against women under the flag of 'but she consented'. Why are we having to put up with this? And why is consent used as though it is some sort of final word on an issue, regardless often of any other factors?

When it comes to rape, I broadly agree with Twisty Faster's wacky consent scheme. I think the whole concept needs an overhaul, and critically examined with regards to all sorts of other issues too.

(For people unfamiliar with Twisty's writing style, she is being a little tongue in cheek and she writes unapologetically for a female radfem audience. Can we try not to get too hung up on semantics - it is the concept that interests me.)

I'm interested in what others think. Thanks.

Lots of good stuff here. Am going to have a read but might not get a chance to comment properly until later on.

Can I just say one thing just now though - I would really like us to have this conversation in a feminist spirit.

By that I mean, one that does not take feminist analysis of society at large as personal criticism and one that does not try to silence that analysis by taking the personal hump. But equally a spirit that does not cast judgement on other women and their negotiations with patriarchy.

We should be able to discuss these things. Freely.

Discussions like these have the potential to make us all uncomfortable because we are all products of our society and our choices and behaviour are constructed therein. Let's give each other a break and not get personal.

goaway, I have read virtually no feminist lit either and I've never studied women's rights formally at all - in fact, if anyone on here has a PhD in women's rights she is being very modest about it (I wouldn't be surprised if some posters do, but I've not seen it mentioned).

Honestly, this is not a complex or an academic question and you don't need to worry that that is the problem.

I'm really sorry you feel sickened - but, you see, so do I. Because, to me, your post sounds like a desription of the kind of relationship I'd run screaming from. I am not just being metaphorical when I say it gives me the shivers. The thought of someone feeling 'entitled' to pester for sex makes me cringe.

I expect it's not nice to hear that this is how your post makes someone else feel, because I hear you saying you love this man ... but it is how I feel. I do have the right to say that, you know. I wouldn't choose to offer an opinion on someone else's marriage, but when it's put where I can read about it, well, yes, I will offer my opinions.

It's from Toward a Feminist Theory of the State, the chapter 'Rape: on coercion and consent'.

Sorry goawaybob, I didn't mean to be offputting by bandying a quote about. I haven't got the brainpower to put it into my own words so I typed it out from the book. Posting a quote was in no way meant to imply that you have to be well-read in feminist theory (I'm not well-read myself anyway!) to join in.

I was tempted to start at thread along the lines of "if your husband persuades you to have sex" that means he is a rapist, but i obviously wouldnt do that becaue that would be massively direspectful towards those who have been raped within a relationship. Your posts have really upset me. You clearly misunderstood my posting of rape myths. I was asking the questions, not stating the fact. I said that i totally agreed that a woman shoudlnt HAVE to say no, but she should feel ABLE to say no. That is not the same as saying if she doesnt utter the word no, she hasn't been raped.

I will stand by my post that my DPis entitled to/allowed (put a legal twist on it if you think it makes you sound better) to try and persuade me to have sex. For me, thats called foreplay, im not a sexual lightbulb, him touching me is not always going to have me ready and waiting, sometimes i take a bit of persuading, if i don't want persuading i'll make that perfectly clear too, my DP would respect that.

With regards to BDSM, one of the (many) issues I have with it, is that consent is assumed.

Consent is assumed until the safe word is used. A safe word is just another way of saying 'no' or 'stop'.

In other words the submissive (generally) is assumed to be in a state of consent unless a 'no' is given.

I find that highly problematic.

prolesworth, that comment was not directed at you. I have an interesst in BDSM but i am not going to discuss it on this thread.

I am genuinely sorry to anyone i have offended by not making myself clear, but i just cannot get my head around my DP lovingly persuading me to have sex (I am talking stroking my back, fondling my breast while im in bed and sleepy most times, kissing my neck at the kitchen sink - all lovely things to have done) being seen as him forcing himself on me, or god forbid raping me, its just so totally wrong and far away from what i am describing. I am describing what i consider to be a normal loving thing to do. As i also said, it is usually the other way around, its usually me that initiates sex. Also, i will pretend not to be interested, hes a lazy lover so if i can prolong the foreplay............

goaway - IMO there is a huge difference between 'persuades' 'asks' and 'is entitled'.

I'm sorry you're upset. But I'm also a bit angry now. Why do you feel it's ok to come along and upset other people with your very graphic descriptions of sex acts which, as people have explained, are at the very least disturbing and at worst, sexual assault ... and then to complain you feel bad because we say we don't like it?

I have posted quite honestly about how your descriptions made me feel, and you've not even bothered to respond to that, let alone apologize for it.

Ok, cross post. Thanks for apologizing.

I think where we're going wrong here is you're saying he's 'entitled' to do this stuff, and this is where I just feel sick. No-one is entitled to do anything to your body without your consent.

Beachcomber - can i pick up on that point. I would imagine that if there is a Dom/sub thing going on, that consent would have been given explicitly and absolutely not taken for granted. Once consent is given to enter a scence for instance, the safe word isnt there to take away consent, but just to say thats enough. IF it were me, and i was entering into something like that, i would probalby outline what my limits are BEFORE doing anything, this is so so important for both parties. It might be that one day i would like X but the next day i might not, that is what a safe word is for. I don't practice BDSM

Prolesworth, that MacKinnon quote is exactly what I mean.

Is consent a meaningful concept? In a nutshell.

Entitled is the wrong word, i see that now. I am very confused by the feminist thing on here. I like to consider myself a feminist. I am sorry if i have been too sexually graphic it was never my intention to upset anyone. But i did feel upset that my partner has been likened to a rapist.

I WAS only asking the questions in my my original response, in as much as for me, i can't put a finger on where consent is given or not given. One would hope that most loving men would make sure that a woman is absolutely ready to move on to having sex before taking that for granted. Sometimes that is obvious by her actions i would have thought, maybe it isn't - a woman might be very aroused, but still not intending to have full sex, of course she is entitlted (*see i have the use of the word right now) to say NO, i said that in my first post, if he is about to enter her, she can still change her mind. I haven't disagreed with anything anyone has said, apart from my partner being able to persuade me to have sex with him.

Thanks for explaining, goaway. I get why it's upsetting - basically it's an upsetting topic, isn't it? Emotions are going to run high.

Can I just say one more thing? You've said again that a woman 'can still change her mind' even if her partner is 'about' to enter her. I do think it's important to be clear: she can say no after that, too, right? I think this is a hugely important point.

I think that maybe this point is related to how we think about sex, as something that's defined by the presence of a penis, which naturally leads us to think of the woman as passive. Which gets into what MacKinnon says so much more eloquently.

Goawaybob I don't have the time right now to go into all the reasons why I have a big feminist problem with BDSM. I alluded to some of them on the Ann Summers thread - I'm about to go out now though so I'll post more thoughtfully on that later. Suffice to say for now that I question consent as a meaningful concept in BDSM.

I want anyone and everyone to feel free to contribute to this thread. Some of us quote books, etc because they help us to express ourselves. Generally this is not a sign of anything other than having the humility to realise that our thoughts are not original and that they have probably been better expressed by someone else before.

Feminism is a grass roots movement that belongs to all women. We all have the right to express ourselves. Personal anecdote can be useful and powerful but equally it can leave one open to having one's life commented on in a way that can be difficult to hear. Proceed with caution, especially when it comes to sex, says I.

Is consent a meaningful concept under male supremacy? I don't think it is, because under male supremacy we don't have the freedom to choose, not really. I agree with IAOS when she said "I don't think it's about choice or consent for many women - it is about survival". Tbh I'd go a bit further and say that I don't think it's about choice or consent for any women, because we're all in the same boat under male supremacy. But I really believe that we (women) very often hold on to our dignity by making a choice out of a necessity. Even if we don't admit it on a conscious level, I think there's a lurking awareness that if we don't acquiesce we will likely be punished for it.

I reckon if we think about it, we can all think of women we know who've had sex not because they wanted sex but for other reasons. But I've noticed how when I discuss this sort of thing with mates, lots of women will deny there is a problem and at the same time will refer to 'bad experiences' in the past or to other women who had 'bad judgment with men'. There seem to be lots of ways of splitting the female population into groups ('me in the past'/'my mate X who has rotten judgment with men'/ 'those silly teenagers'), and this allows women to say 'well, I don't think I have any problem with consent, I would never let a man force me or guilt me into anything ...

So yes, I agree proles, I think for a lot of women there is that lurking awareness and that's why so many women make a distinction between themselves and other women/themselves in the past, in order to insist they're not affected by this problem of consent.

I think there are some grey areas on consent within relationships, because women (and men) may have sex for complicated motives:

Because even though I'm not in the mood right now I know I'll get into it once we start
Because I know it will be good for our relationship
Because he's had a lousy day and could do with cheering up
Because he's in a foul mood and I wish he'd cheer up
Because I know if we don't have sex he'll be grumpy enough to make my life miserable
Because there may be an unspoken hint of violence if I don't
Because he's specifically threatened me with violence if I don't

And in a work context
Because he won't give me the job if I don't
Because he'll sack me if I don't

Many of these are the sign that you are in a relationship with a selfish bastard, or worse. Some of these are unequivocally rape.

Or am I wrong? - I know "grey areas" is a phrase which is a bit fraught in rape discussions.

Is consent a meaningful concept under male supremacy?

Yes. That Proles.

Which I think is one of the reasons why BDSM gets discussed at lot in feminism and is a very divisive subject.

I think of BDSM as being a sort of characterisation of male supremacy. BDSM feishizes patriarchal values, power dynamics and paradigms. As do porn and prostitution.

Hence why I think the above are all Big Subjects in feminism. And they are uncomfortable ones because the themes that are explored and deconstructed within them, can't be applied to patriarchy at large, i.e. all of us.

Basically I think 'consent' can be (doesn't mean it always is), a big Get Out Of Jail Free card for men who wish to abuse women.