Is it easier to be a feminist when you're middle class?

[BlingLoving]

I don't know how to express this properly but would be interested in other views. In my office, we have a wide range of men and women who have varying levels of education and who I think range also in terms of old fashioned "class" from working class to quite posh.

I've started to notice that in my office it's the traditional middle class types, men and women, who seem to be the most in touch with issues of feminism while those on the furtherest ends of the scale on both sides, tend to be less aware of feminism issues and seem to have more sexist relationships.

So, "standard"* middle class men are both taking turns at doing school run, taking responsibility for cooking and cleaning and I can often hear them negotiating with their wives on the phone regarding nights out etc. Similarly, the "standard" middle class women in the office seem to have a better split on household tasks with their partners and split nights to get home early for childcare and so on.

However, the poshest man in our team, has a SAHW (who used to be a hotshot lawyer but who stopped because trying to do both was too hard, which I completely understood as while she was still working I think he left the office in time to relieve the nanny no more than once every 2 weeks) and although his second child is 7 months old, he has yet to spend any time alone with both his children together. Ever.

Similarly, the more working class women in the office all cook and clean for their partners and regularly talk about how their partners don't so much as run the hoover round. And the ones with children have all dropped from full time "professional" positions to support positions, ie taken a few steps back in their careers, in order to allow them to work part time and/or to leave every day at exactly 4:30pm because their partners are unable/unwilling to do the same.

So, is feminism not just a gender thing but also a class thing?

• Clearly, "standard" middle class is a made up term that simply reflects some kind of Bling's-view-based-on-tv-and-newspapers-that-she-couldn't-really-articulate-if-she-tried-but-that-she-hopes-you-understand.

Well said CocoaLoco (absolutely love your name btw).

I'm not sure if it's the same in the UK, but I read a study about class here in Norway, and it found two quite different sets of thinking as regards to working and having a family. Among people who identified as working class, and especially the women, working was only something you do to earn enough for what you need. If you could get by with working less, you work less - because that gives you time with your family, which is what's important. Being at home with children when they are small is important. They might not all afford to be home, but they would wish they could. They also enforced this quite strongly to each other by speaking negatively of women who chose careers instead of children or were perceived to do so. These women became those career women, not women who tried to juggle work and family just like themselves. Middle-class women, on the other hand, thought work was an important part of their identity and had more of a self-realisation approach to their careers. To justify their being at work instead of at home with their children, they again would sneer at downtrodden housewives...

At the very start of feminist organisation in Norway, feminists soon split into two groups - one group of middle-class women who fought for the vote and for ideological and political power, and one group for working-class women who thought changes in day-to-day life - such as equal pay for equal work and regulation of working hours - were more important than faffing about with politics. The split was quite brutal, and I guess it is still visible in some areas. For both groups to identify with 'feminism,' they need a feminism that doesn't decide for them e.g. whether they should stay at home with their children or not. I know feminism doesn't do that - but it seems many people think it does (perhaps because they conflate middle-class feminists with those career women), and consequently decide it's not for them. I would think it natural for people to focus on the areas they are most interested in or where they feel the need is greatest, but when some groups (such as academic feminists) get their voices heard, as CocoaLoco says, while others don't, it's easy to think that those group represent the whole of feminism

I think because the middle class have more power to shout louder then the middle class feminist issues are the ones we hear most about. This doesn't mean they are bigger issues than working class issues it is just another layer of silencing. Class and race and sexuality and just about everything else that can be discriminated against for adds another dimension to feminism. But I personally dont think this means there aren't universal issues for all women. I think a bit more sisterhood would go a long way.

I think you've got a point. My experience is that the middle class woman is more likely to be happy in a domestic role than a paid job because it's what their mothers did. They're more likely to be financially dependent on a well-paid man. They then fight to convince everyone that they enjoy complete equality in the relationship, are making valid choices and are therefore feminists. The working class woman probably doesn't even call herself a feminist... she's just a woman that stands up for herself & has a job because it's what her mother did and because she needs to bring in cash to pay the bills. She has a slightly cynical view of men in general & wouldn't trust one with her cash or let one tell her what to do.

Hoebag - I understand what you are saying. I am from a very working class background and find it very difficult to enlist support from my women peers. I am not sure if that is class or what. I must say, I was at a Feminist Meeting in a large city about 30 miles away from me (the nearest I could find) and I voiced an opinion about something. One of the other women then said 'I really do feel you have to have been at uni to understand feminism'. I nearly fell off my chair! I havent been to university but I have been active in feminism on and off for 40 years! I might not have a degree but I do have a modicom of common sense.

I'm not sure tbh. I have with working class people come across people with very traditional roles, those where the father is useless and those with a good split of roles. IME shared family money seems to be more common in working class families with the woman more likely to manage the family budget. Seems to be more common in middle class families ime for women to have access to less money than the man.

Also thinking of some of the middle class families I know, the fathers tend to be good at doing the nice bits e.g. playing with kids, baths, cooking - but not so good at doing the boring housework for example.

So overall, not sure OP.

I don't profess to be very good at analysing this type of thing, but here goes...

(sorry for the gross generalisations!)

A lot of the "middle-class" women I know seem to get more input from their partners with the children and childcare etc, but seem more likely to be financially tied to their partners and more likely to be a SAHM (not that it's a bad thing at all, just that a lot of their partners seem to think they are "above" the woman because they are the working ones and earn a good salary - it's truly disgusting that they have no concept of the fortunes the woman is 'saving' them in childcare for THEIR own children and housekeeping!). they usually live in mortgaged homes, joint assets etc which is harder to untangle from than more working-class people.

Whereas I'm shocked at what some of the "working-class" women I know put up with from their partners - the man doing nothing around the home, no childcare or anything, down the pub all the time etc. However the working class women tend to have more family support from nearby mothers, sisters etc and live in rented accommodation with not many shared assets and used to living on a low income so in a way easier for them to leave an abusive partner (with the family support close by and less complex financial entanglements).

But yes, every woman needs feminism.

Does middle class = better education? Are middle class women better at asking for their partner to share tasks? Are middle class men more receptive to sharing 'women's work'? Maybe they are less likely to have the mickey taken by their friends for washing up, minding the kids, or taking Tarquin to choir practice?

I agree with Nyac - I think it manifests in different ways.

It's a generalisation of course and I'm not saying all DV is related to class, but just a couple of things I've experienced - the (often young) working class women/girls (because some of them were teenagers) I came across when I used to regularly attend sure start groups seemed to take relationship violence for granted. One of them described to me quite calmly as though it was a normal event the way her child's father had pinned her to the wall by her throat, and then in the next breath went on to discuss how said father had access to their child at her home, and unsupervised, out of it. There were regular discussions at the morning playgroup about husbands/partners' problem drinking or drug use, exes being unreasonable and/or abusive over money or contact, and ways to get men to "change"/discussion over whether they could.

If there were episodes of abuse which were deemed serious enough to leave, then some left, but many went back time and time again and seemed trapped in this horrible kind of repeating pattern. They were realistic in what to expect from their men, but they believed every man was like this, so they picked the one whose positive qualities they liked the best and ignored the negatives.

Of course, this was not all of the women, a handful either never spoke about their relationships at all, were single, or had mutually respectful and equal relationships. But at least half, I'd say, talked in this casual way about dysfunction/abusive behaviours in relationships, and seemed to accept it as their due. It was like the idea of a mutually respectful, equal relationship was some kind of fantasy for the TV screen, or so rare that if you happened to find one, you were extremely lucky.

By contrast, people I've known who are more middle class (for want of a better term) - when they have relationship problems, they seem more inclined to try and work on them than accept them (which does not usually work in your favour, if your husband is abusive). They seem to feel more is at stake. Whereas the WC women were always quick to advise me to stop contact between XP and DS when XP was being unreasonable, MC friends/acquaintances stressed the importance of DS having a relationship with his dad and seemed more likely to make excuses for XP or give him the benefit of (far beyond reasonable) doubt. They tend to react more to explicit, concrete signs of abusive behaviour, for example, somebody I know called the police immediately when her husband threatened to hit her during an argument. However, although they have now separated she seems to be clinging to his promises that he will change his behaviour, be more involved with the DC, etc.

I don't think it's as easy to say that any one group of women find it easier to extricate themselves from abuse than another.

My upbringing was very MC.

My Dad was no more a feminist than i am a F4J supporter.

DP was brought up very WC and his Dad and Mum are totally traditional in the man/woman roles even though his Mum always worked full time.

His Dad used to make jokes about us/me being along the lines of 'The tale wags the dog in that house'! [twat]

DP shares most household chores and often cooks even though he works longer and physically harder than i do now.

DP is a feminist too despite his upbringing and is one of the kindest blokes (and he is quite blokey) i know.

I think it's hard for lots of women to leave abusers no matter what class they are supposed to be from,maybe harder for women from well off relationships if the man controls the finances and the woman has stayed at home to raise a family.

i think that norway study is interesting and relevant mybrain. there is a communication gap between middle and working class women and feminists imo whereby when you talk about work you mean very different things. working class and middle class women mean something very different by the word 'work' a lot of the time. M/C are talking about their careers, their aspirations, their status given worthiness work and assuming that is what 'work' is. i find myself repeatedly pointing out on mn that not everyone has a 'career' some people just do a job and they do it purely to pay the bills and really don't get much out of it or see it as some worthy journey or part of their identity - it's the shit they're forced to do to keep a roof over their heads, often at unsociable hours and at the expense of having any time with their partner who is on a different shift pattern. it often involves just being bossed around to do what you're told rather than enriching ones identity particularly.

so i do think there can be a communication gap if you like between the two. ideally any feminist would have a wider analysis and understanding than just her class/race/economic/marital/etc position and be able to see more complexity. some people are very engrained though and therefore to follow the example above go around preaching the good news of career and never adjust their communication about it to acknowledge there's is a class based view and experience.

theirs!

Yes I think it general mc women have a lot more choice over whether to work or not than wc women and this can create resentment.

I think there is also less stigma over being a single mum in wc communities so it can be socially easier to leave a bad relationship and also probably has less of a financial penalty.

Also a lot of the gains made by feminism eg education haven't really benefitted a lot of wc girls who leave school at 16 with few quals and go into much more segregated sectors eg cleaning, caring, catering.

And financial gains like access to debt, bank accounts, mortgages has passed over the heads of the most disadvantaged women who will never have any of these.

it's quite possible that the backlash is hitting working class women more brutally than the mc too.

At risk of making class-prejudiced generalisations:

The working class and upper class tend to be more conservative and less quick to make changes about many things than the middle class.

So, yes, the role of women/attitude towards women and feminism has changed more quickly amongst the middle class. However lots of other things have changed more quickly there too. It's not limited to feminism.

I think what Nyak said was really interesting:

"I think sexism manifests itself in different ways depending on circumstances. So inequality might look different for middle class women than working class women but it doesn't mean it's not there."

Also BusinessTrills...

I guess I'd have to weigh in with my 5 pence and say perhaps the main form of discrimination you face changes as the change from WC to MC takes place? So you're more concerned with money (and related issues, like security of housing etc..) but then if you had more money and stability etc as a woman you might then realised that still wasn't enough, and there was still more discrimination to overcome. Flipping heck, rubbish innit?