Do you think part of the vitril/hate aimed at Thatcher is because she is a woman?

[lesley33]

Okay Margaret Thatcher enacted a lot of policies that made a lot of people very angry and she certainly didn't set out to do anything to promote the rights of women.

But I am struck about the amount of vitriol that is still aimed at her all these years later. There have been male politicians - Norman Tebbitt springs to mind - who have been responsible for similar policies and have been hated at the time, but I never read about people still hating these politicians many years later.

I'm not sure if this is just because Thatcher was PM or is it because she is a woman and by behaving the way she did, she stepped well outside traditionally permitted female behaviour?

What do you think about this?

This is true. sigh.

Thatcher spent the money from our North Sea Oil reserves on things like tax cuts for the rich.

Australia meanwhile was paying off its national debt.

Bonsoir you are spot on about the more modest lifestyles of the 70's / early 80's. The deeply consumerist society we live in puts such pressure on people to earn huge amounts to spend on wasteful items.

I am aghast at how many people seem to define themselves purely by the car they drive, bag they carry etc and how much money they spend on childrens toys.

Cough

Scotland's oil

cough

snapsnap - I think we need to remain sanguine about the things people define themselves by. Material possessions have always, in all societies, been used to signal status - though of course cultural knowledge, value of work to others/society etc also signal status and are perhaps more laudable.

What I think is really tasteless is WAG-style consumerism - people with no discernible talent other than bagging a rich H and shopping. And these people are called "celebrities" and emulated. Yuck.

LittleAlbert that should have read 'her' reserves probably...

snapsnap I won't bore you with all the ways I raise my DC to be attractive and competitive within a globalized market. It is my specialist subject and is central to how DH and I parent.

As a post it would go on for pages...but the idea is that we are raising robust, flexible, dynamic, hard working, polished, well informed, optimistic young people.

The most obvious thing of course is to model these things ourselves. I struggle with polish from my background, but still...Everyhting else I show them on a daily basis. As does DH.

From there we include everything and anything that we feel will foster these attributes and more. This inludes everyhting from MFL (not Mandarin btw) to taking them on business trips with us. From competitive sport to discussing our business and creative ideas. From insisting they take responsibility from a young age to reading aloud to them way past the usual age.

Bonsoir, you are absolutely on the money about expectations of what we should spend, my childhood in the 70s my mum was working every Sat morning, the teenager from down the road looked after us every Saturday. When I was a baby and my mum was working, either her colleagues at the university looked after me (and the professor taught me to read ), or my Grandma's cleaner looked after me. The idea of 'professional' childcare didn't come into it.

You can argue the toss for that, and of course if you don't have relatives nearby then it's all a lot harder. But I think that there is definitely an expectation of spending more on 'stuff' than there used to be, and the world is definitely more consumer-driven.

That's why the NSPCC pisses me off with its smuggeryfuck 'Don't have a babysitter under 16' advice.

That's what you get as a tangible Every Child Matters outcome...

Thanks Wordfactory. I come from a pretty modest background, and was personally not reared to succeed ifswim. I'm always fishing around for ways in which I might offer my children the advantages I had, beyond the obvious ones of schooling etc

I think child protection as a whole has a lot to answer for tbh, because it is so barking mad as to actually damage childhood. It is there to protect care-givers not children imo.

The 'no babysitting under 16' is crazy isn't it, because plenty of teenage girls have babies...and it is legal to marry at 16!!!!

And of course people then try and interpret it as 'no children left alone under the age of 16'...

It's loopy. Teenagers make fab babysitters - especially when they are the children of your friends and neighbours. What's not to like about having a friendly teen play with your DC? I have fab memories of playing French skipping and sewing dolls' duvet covers with my teenaged babysitters. And as a teen myself I had a good line in hairdressing for little girls - they loved me .

Do you have a powerpoint presentation Wordfactory? Will there be nadouts later?

Me too snapsnap.

And whilst I admit that having money does make things easier giving ones DC the skills they will need to succceed, there are just so mnay other things you can do yourself.

Mothers and their access to free childcare is vastly changed by the fact that many move for careers. Women lose their own immediate support network.

I bet many of the nouveau pouvre are just if not more competitive with the raising of their children. And do state plus extras instead to regain that lost ground.

We should rise up reclaim the teenaged babysitter.

Also this brings lots of pocket-money to younger teenagers they wouldn't otherwise have.

"And whilst I admit that having money does make things easier giving ones DC the skills they will need to succeed, there are just so many other things you can do yourself."

I agree very strongly with this. For better or worse, parental expectations and role models are hugely influential.

Perhaps Marsha.
But there do seem to be posters here on MN who really do equate any form of expectation as pressure.

The furore of Tiger Mother was very interesting. Whilst I could never keep up her level of single mindedness, I found the accusations of child abuse etc quite hysterical. In Asia the book was billed as how to parent the relaxed American way .

I know that the way Bonsoir and I parent (consciously with high expectation) makes some posters very squeamish.

I am aware of my own parenting changing with the current economic climate tbh - before the big crash I was all for the kids doing whatever they were 'called' to do, as long as they did it well.

Now I'm much more saying 'you've got decent brains, get a job that will pay you as good a wage as you can get, do the rest in your spare time'. And that is a definite change for me, and it started with the uni fees rise really - if they're going to have to pay that much, they're just going to have to get decent jobs, even if they aren't exactly what they want to do.

It seems normal to me to have high expectations, because my parents were great at having them for us. Ds1 is young but yes he has to do his homework, try hard, mostly be motivated. So no argument there.

I'm really wracking my brains to think of some one staunchly mc, np and complacent . They are all hell bent! I'll look out for it more on here, probably washes by.

My parents had very high expectations and to have them seems "normal" to me; what, however, has to change through the generations is the precise nature of those expectations. My father was expected to perform in cricket, Latin and Greek, as far as I can tell, and those particular skills served him very well. I wouldn't consider any of those areas of expertise anything more than a sideline for my own DC, to do if they have the inclination and time once everything we consider non-negotiable has been completed. And the non-negotiable list is awfully long!

Bonsoir and Wordfactory some advise please, as I am not squemish about high expectations.
My DC are just 3.5 and 1 so much younger than your DC's. At this age what should I be expecting from my older DD?
Obviously saying please, thank you, greeting people, hanging up your coat etc but beyond that should I expect more? I am aware that by living in Paris, society expects manners anyway but otherwise what did you expect from your Dc's at this age.
Sorry feel like I am bleeding you both dry with my many questions!

Is your DD in PS, snapsnap? You could start thinking about teaching her to read in English (but leave writing up to French school as they do a fab job of it). She can do swimming lessons (we just love the maîtres nageurs at Neuilly pool) and gymnastics pretty soon. Take her to the playground at Jardin du Luxembourg as much as possible - it is the only place in Paris properly equipped for developing full motor skills, and has age and skill-level appropriate equipment for every child.

Bonsoir Yes she is in playschool (bilingual montessori) and we have started on jollyphonics which is going ok. She is really not very athletic and hates swimming with a passion, however she attends a dance class on Wednesday that she loves. Gymnastics sounds good, and may ease her into the athletic side of things. I'm afraid that I have been somewhat lacking in attentive parenting side of things over the last couple of months and need to get focused !

However athletic or unathletic the child, I think it's really important to supplement a child's motor skills development outside school here in Paris - there isn't enough focus on those skills at school and no nursery schools in Paris intra-muros have decent facilities/playgrounds.

How about the trampoline at the Tuileries? That's great fun.