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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When you talk about the negatives of marriage, do you also include long-term cohabitation?

43 replies

Wamster · 10/03/2012 11:00

There is a thread here about criticisms of marriage. Fair enough, but isn't long-term cohabitation much the same as marriage in terms of how people behave in their home lives and don't we just treat people who are in long-term relationships as married, anyway?
Civil partnerships would not change things, either, as legally they are identical to marriage and I find that a couple's legal status has little to do with how they behave in their relationships. Marriage, long-term cohabitation, civil partnerships whatever-patriarchal society will STILL try to push traditional gender roles whatever set-up women are in.

Apart from legally, of course, but then I disagree with cohabitee rights as I believe that marriage should have nothing to do with the state and be a purely private affair and people shouldn't legally be treated as married just because they cohabit.
I don't treat couples differently in a social sense because of their legal status and nor does the dwp when it comes to benefits..

Because of this, I have exactly the same opinion of long-term cohabitation as I do marriage. They BOTH suck.

OP posts:
Dustinthewind · 11/03/2012 08:53

'I thought I was a C-grade feminist, you are an F-grade. '

Wow, now you get to be the assessor of people's grade of feminism? That's one of the major criticisms that many have about this section of MN, there's always someone with a 42 point checklist to tell you how fem/nonfem you are.

WW, your marriage sounds similar to mine, linked with being individuals, equality, love and respect for each other. I outearned my OH for years and he was the SAHP for our children for a long time.

'I'm aware, it's not like that in every relationship, and a lot of relationships lack equality, no matter whether there's a marriage certificate or not. But I don't think that stopping to recognise relationships would change anything for the better. I believe the way to address this is to continuously challenge stereotypes, and broadcast the message that living according to stereotypical gender roles is not the only way of living.'

Dustinthewind · 11/03/2012 08:55

Oh, I had lots of sex in marriage, out of marriage and several times in a park.
Not all with the same partner. But it was always fun and mutually enjoyable.

Nyac · 11/03/2012 08:56

Isn't Wamster one of the critics of this section herself? Mind you I lose track.

WidowWadman · 11/03/2012 08:57

Where have I said sex was only enjoyable within marriage? I've never said that. Personally I prefer sex in a stable committed relationship to one night stands, but each to their own. I'm not judging people who have casual sex, I used to be one of them after all.

I misread your statement about the reduction of birth rates as to do something with sex. Sorry, sex is after all how you get pregnant normally. If you don't make that connection, fair enough.

I still don't see what point you are trying to make though with bringing up contraception? I might have misunderstood you and thought you meant to say that sex and children are something men force onto women. If you did not mean to say that, apologies, but do you care to explain what your actual point is?

As for your and my feminist credentials, I don't subscribe to what your brand of feminism seems to be. But thankfully, yours is not the only one. Therefore I'm not less of a feminist than you are. Just one on a different part of the spectrum.

And now would you please care to explain, why living together with a partner you love, and possibly even with children is shit?

Dustinthewind · 11/03/2012 08:58

;You mean before the advent of freely available contraception women could not enjoy sex without fear of falling pregnant, whilst now they can?

If you don't like sex, that's ok, if you don't want to live with a man or anyone, just don't do it. But extrapolating from your individual choices, likes and dislikes that that is how everyone should do it is a bit myopic.'

Was it this post that led you to believe that WW was accusing you personally of not liking sex? I took it to be more generic, that one should not generalise about others from one's own somewhat limited personal experiences. All people's experiences are limited. there just isn't enough time to cover everything.

Wamster · 11/03/2012 08:58

Yes, I do regard her as being an F-grade feminist. My arguments here are about marriage/long-term cohabitation and what does she do? Declares that I dislike sex. WTF??!! Because I dare criticise marriage I must dislike sex.

OP posts:
Nyac · 11/03/2012 09:00

Apologies if I'm wrong Wamster.

WidowWadman, if women get married without social pressure then why does so much need to be applied. Why marriage for centuries pretty much the only option a woman had. Why were women treated like property by men, owned by their fathers or husbands. Why is there still a massive propaganda effort on behalf of marriage (see Royal Weddings and hand-wringing articles in the Daily Mail for example). You can't get away from heterosexual relationship propaganda.

I don't think it's natural. There are other ways of living.

KatAndKit · 11/03/2012 09:01

But your argument seems to be that women could not possibly want to live in a relationship with a man and would not have children of their own free will.

I don't understand at all what your argument is. Please explain what is so wrong with having a long term stable relationship where you live with your partner/spouse and bring up the children you have made together? Why is this not a life choice that feminists should be making?

sunshineandbooks · 11/03/2012 09:01

If we're talking about the negatives of marriage for women, I'm not sure I'd include cohabitation. Simply because even though marriage can be argued to 'trap' women, it also offers some protection in the event of relationship breakdown that isn't there for a woman living in a cohabiting relationship that fails. Of course, it's possible to enshrine all those benefits through legal means without getting married, but few people seem to do so and with rare exceptions it seems to be nearly always the woman who falls foul of it.

Not that that's an argument to get married, but in terms of the OP it's why I wouldn't necessarily lump in marriage and cohabitation in the same group.

In terms of daily life, I agree that there probably isn't much difference though. Legally marriage is a big deal, but it doesn't make any difference to how you live that marriage.

Do I think both suck? For a lot of women, sadly I think it does. I know several people who are happily married and for whom the benefits are obvious. Neither party in the relationship would be able to do what they do as a single person and both would experience a significant drop in income should they separate. Their respective families have become a united whole and, of course, perhaps most importantly Wink they love each other. They represent the idealised (modern) notion of marriage and how it should work. And for couples like this, it does work.

However, I don't believe that's the reality for the majority. Given the rate of relationship breakdown (combining divorce and cohabitation breakdown) the rate is about half. Of the remaining half, are they all happy? Of course, they're not. We all know people who are miserable together, or whose spouse is having an affair. THen you have domestic violence at a rate of 1 in 4. For me, the only conclusion is that for most women, marriage and cohabitation does not equate to happiness, love, fidelity, bodily integrity and respect. Factor in the research on poverty, which shows most women still earning less than men and much more likely to be poor - particularly on relationship breakdown which ^does not affect the man in the same way nor to anywhere near the same extent - and it's clear that marriage and cohabitation do not equal financial stability either unless you stick at it through thick and thin despite all else (including infidelity and abuse). To me, that seems to be the definition of 'trapped'.

I think marriage is a by-product of a different age, when society was organised on different lines. I don't think you can look at it without taking into account its cultural backdrop. Of course, it has changed over time. The over-riding reason for marriage now is love, whereas not so long ago that was probably at the bottom of the list of reasons to get married, when it was all about property union. That doesn't mean that all of the effects of those original purposes for marriage have vanished though. Women remain more likely to be raped and assaulted by their marriage partner than they do a random person on the street, they are still more likely to be the secondary earner and so more vulnerable.

Do I judge individual women for getting married? Of course not. Like I said, when marriage does work for both partners, it can work exceptionally well. It's a cornerstone of our culture and the building block of society. It's normal and as such it would be crazy to judge individual women for making a normal decision - especially if they are one for whom it does actually work quite well. However, that doesn't stop me from thinking that, generally speaking, marriage hurts more women than it protects and is only one way of organising your life. If there was a true choice in how we live our lives (e.g. no one batted an eyelid at other choices and our economy was geared up to different types of household rather than the heterosexual pair bond) I think we'd see a lot more variety and have a much nicer society. I think we'd find a lot more same-sex platonic households in which sex was something that happened in a relationship but not a cohabiting/married one. We'd still have married couples, but we'd have variety, and personally I think that would be a good thing and provide much greater stability for a lot of children.

KatAndKit · 11/03/2012 09:04

Your argument seem to be about the past (the Daily Mail is living in the past century in any case). I am really not coming across any pressure to get married in my own day to day life. Where is the "propaganda"? Where is the "pressure" that you are talking about?

I don't think that because a person in the Royal Family decided to formalize their long term relationship with a wedding that I personally am being put under pressure to do the same thing.

In today's society, where women are not legally the property of their husbands, and we do have the option of keeping our independent earnings and we do have other options apart from getting married, what is so wrong with either marriage or long term cohabitation?

Nyac · 11/03/2012 09:09

Are you addressing me Kat. It's not clear.

If the Royal Wedding was just about getting hitched they'd do it behind closed doors. Instead it's a massive televised across the world day of public celebration. It's patriarchal propaganda.

It's just silly to say the Daily Mail is in the past too - it's one of the most widely read newspapers in the country, with a heavily female readership. They're not reading DM articles 50 years ago, they're reading them. today.

Lots of families put pressure on their children to get married, being single for women especially is still stigmatised. If you can't see it that's fine. I'm not trying to persuade you, I'm just stating an opinion.

rhondajean · 11/03/2012 11:54

Marraige is to be criticised in terms of power issues.

To some extent. You see time after time on these threads women married and cohabiting, with little or no power or control over at least one aspect of their life - and it's usually finances.

Sanjeev · 11/03/2012 12:56

Nyac said 'If the Royal Wedding was just about getting hitched they'd do it behind closed doors. Instead it's a massive televised across the world day of public celebration. It's patriarchal propaganda.'

I agree with the first sentence. The second sentence is to do with money - world-wide TV revenue, tourism, tax dollars. The Government coffers will have benefited massively from all the palaver, and businesses will have done nicely too. The third sentence though - what do you mean? The monarchy is a matriarchy, and the Queen needs to ensure that her bloodline can continue in it's privileged position long after her. A pretty young couple will enable that and prop up the system of the aristocracy staying rich and powerful, regardless of their gender.

WidowWadman · 11/03/2012 15:10

The criticism that marriage should not be pushed on girls as a career choice or the only thing to strive for is valid. That however doesn't mean at the same time that marriage or even just cohabitation is never a valid choice.

I find all these memes that the wedding day is the bride's big day and all the bridezillaguff about having matching bridesmaids and caring about what colour the cravats are and whether they clash with someone's hair gruesome. Why should the wedding be a bigger day for the bride than for the groom? Why should he be excluded (or be so lucky not having to deal with all that crap)? The stereotypes what a wedding should be like, and how a woman should feel about it, it's what's damaging. If the emphasis is shifted away from the celebration to the partnership that is being celebrated it becomes more even, straightaway.

Women who live in happy marriages or happily cohabit with their partner do not betray the sisterhood. I think it's just natural evolution of a relationship to want to set up together at some point. (And yes, I'm aware some people don't do that - if it works for them, great. But that doesn't make it a better choice, just a different one)

As for the royal family - personally I find hereditary monarchy pretty outdated anyway, but you can give them the benefit of the doubt that Kate and Wills have been together for a very long time and at least seem to have given it some thought - much different situation to Will's mother who was hitched as a very young woman to a much older Charles more or less for publicity reasons.
I don't think William and Kate had much choice in the setting of their wedding - they would not have got away with eloping to Gretna Green.

WidowWadman · 11/03/2012 15:14

Sanjeev The monarchy is not a matriarchy. The only reason Brenda is queen is because she didn't have a brother. Even though she was the oldest child, a younger brother would have become King instead of her.

They've changed that last year though, making Kate and William's first child heir to the throne regardless of gender.

Sanjeev · 11/03/2012 15:18

WW, is it a patriarchy now then?

WidowWadman · 11/03/2012 15:34

It's hereditary monarchy - I don't think matriarchy/patriarchy are terribly useful terms to describe it.

Sanjeev · 11/03/2012 15:35

Agreed. It was a strange thing to say. Almost like a default position...

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