Guides or Scouts

[EdithWeston]

I've been watching the news about the 100th Anniversary of the Guides.

I was wondering, for those of you with DDs in either of these movements, which did you/she choose, and why? Was the girls only aspect of Guides a factor?

they have here, i assumed it was worldwide. no 'god' anywhere at all. (should add am now in canada, but was under the impression it was going the same way in the uk - will google the current promise...)

Here is the Guide promise from guidinguk, and the Scout Promise from scouts.org.uk.

"My God" there at the heart of both.

EdithWeston - I have to ask, are you from Rutland/Leics? The name you see...

I went from Brownies to Guides to a joint Ventures/Rangers unit and while the single sex element can be good in a suitably adventurous brownie/guide unit, for a girl who gets mixed sex experience elsewhere anyway, I think that by 15 a mixed group is really good. Last time I went back to the annual dinner as an oldie, the unit had split back into two single sex 14/15-18 groups with a mixed sex 18-25 group and the teenagers just sat in single sex tables and looked shyly across the room at each other. Coming from guides meant that the girls in my unit were wel up for leadership roles etc and it made for some good working-together in equality. Now they just seemed to be unable to relate to each other.

(Yes, yes, and having your first proper relationship within the unit made for some awkward moments but also plenty of good, chaperoned, opportunities for snogging at dinners or camp!)

My only concern with Guildes is that I know some people thought it was just for 'silly' 'not cool' stuff when I was younger and that that was why girls wanted to join scouts. Obviously it varies from group to group but I did feel there was some denigration of female-ness going on there.

ah, ok, they just have suggested alternatives for atheists but haven't removed it formally from the uk version yet.

it's gone completely here, so i assume uk will follow suit fairly shortly. i think it was a couple of years ago here - we have stickers all over the old handbooks covering the promise etc

I'm not exactly from that place. But it would be fair to say that it is part of the country I know well and have done for many years.

My DDs both did Rainbows, Brownies and Guides and are now training to be Leaders. They are both atheist (as are DH and I) - they have found that the promise and very occasional church services are really the only time God is mentioned! I didn't want them to miss out on Guiding because we didn't believe in God. I think there are parts of every organisation that not everyone will agree with, but this appears to be a very small part, so it is easily glossed over.

On the subject of girls-only, I felt it would be good for them to have that space, as school/the rest of life is mixed. And I was a Brownie and Guide, and I admit I felt a kind of proud belonging 'pull' for my daughters to be Guides. That probably sounds very strange, sorry! But they say now, they feel the same- I suppose it's like the school you go to, or your House at school; you very quickly begin to feel 'one of them' and I honestly couldn't have imagined my girls not being Guides.

To whoever it was said their daughter was 3 and must think about Rainbows soon - do it now! At DD1's Rainbow group, if girls are not on the waiting list by 3, they won't be starting as soon as they are 5.

I really wouldn't assume that, after all my DDs Brownies and Guides get the use of their hall rent free as its a "Christian" organisation. The organisation is doing very well for numbers and I've heard no hints that its going to change the promise.
The situation may be very different in Canada (and I assume for Girl Scouts in the US).

I just looked on the UK Guide Association website and the promises do still include God, so I'm still quite happy to write them off myself. Even if they are happy to accept atheists as having a valid view of the world it's still going to be second class. Given the history, it's not the sea change I would need to see to be comfortable with it. I don't really want my kids to spend much time in organizations that place belief above non-belief. I'm still a little bitter about my own experiences as a Guide, which probably makes me cynical about any changes. They do make lots of good statements about girls though, and the OP isn't asking about religious discrimination.

On the Scouts vs. Guides issue, one thing that always worries me about boys organizations that let in girls is that it is almost always a because of what girls can do for the boys, not because of what the organization can do for the girls. I noticed this with some of the independent boys schools that opened up to girls in the 80s and 90s. Schools that had brilliant science pass rates for boys did not replicate this with girls, who were less likely to take science and less likely to excel if they did. I don't know how that has played out in Scouts, but as I recall they opened up to girls because of falling rolls, not because of a belief that girls were in need of what Scouts had to offer and it was immoral of them to have excluded girls for so long. That sort of crass commercial decision making does not safeguard girls' (or boys') interests, though it may still end up being better (and I don't really blame an organization for trying to survive).

I think it is telling of our society that this is an option that was available to Scouts because of the premium we place on male experience. But had Guides tried doing the same thing, I can't see many boys taking up a place at Brownies, because, well what could a boy get from doing girl things? Grrr.

Oh sorry massive cross post.

DD1 who is in Year 6 is having a bit of a rough year at school. She isn't fitting in at school at all and Guides is a haven for her.

I just asked her why she likes it so much and she reeled off a great long list including; challenges, fund-raising, helping people, badges and discussing equal rights.

I asked her if she prefers it being girls only or would prefer it to be mixed. She prefers no boys as it would be embarassing to discuss equal rights and self-respect in front of them apparently. The other girls are really nice she says and I know that the guide leader is very hot on respect both self-respect and for others. I'm just really happy that she's happy and has a place to be successful.

Interestingly, listening to American women of my age (late 20s early 30s) talk about it, they found the girl scouts to be fab - leadership experience, outdoorsy, feminist, progressive, safe female-only spaces, etc. All positive messages. The Boy Scouts, however, are (from what friends tell me) oddball religious-right-dominated havens of masculine posturing.

I know my artsy liberal progressive friend nexus is going to be subjective in its reporting, but it has made me think twice about what to do for DS, should he want to join the boy scouts. Whereas I would have encouraged a DD towards the girl scouts here, I think. Not sure if there are girl guides, actually.
I was in a Brownie troup back in England, but didn't join the guides as it was 'boring'. As a Brownie we did lots of crafts and games, but never anything outdoorsy or involving camping or anything. I rather wished we did, at the time (and since then!), but enjoyed myself nonetheless.

Blackcurrants, it might be fairly similar as here (in Canada) with the scouting movement... There are an awful lot of church sponsored scouting groups (each pack or whatever has to have a 'sponsor' unlike in the uk. So lots of scouts are church sponsored. These groups have slightly different rules.....

If you find a group that is community or workplace sponsored, then there's no bother. I ran one. just do your research....