trans-vaginal ultrasound for no medical reason - Virginia, anti-choice

[MitchieInge]

(and other states I think) is there a thread about this already?

Raping women with dildo cams - nice work Virginia.

I am shocked, but not surprised, at the draconian approaches by some sections of US society to abortion. I don't think it's an ethical thing with them, more a power trip.

I read fairly recently (can't remember where, so can't quote the source - but I will find it) that some decades ago there was a correlation between the increased availability of terminations and a decrease in social problems. I think that was referred to as "every child a wanted child". Yes, I know that sounds a bit like eugenics, but it wasn't that terminations were imposed on women, rather that women were given the right to make responsible decisions for themselves. And now that right is being gradually eroded. The reasons in that article are spurious.

Apologies to the USians here, but I've often found it difficult to understand US attitudes (or maybe it's just US politicos?). On the one hand it appears to be a very creative, innovative, and forward-thinking nation, but on the other hand it seems to be Old Testament in some of its attitudes.

bonzo77 I read something similar once about women being examined by police officers, I think Jennifer worth who wrote the call the midwife book wrote about it in one of her books, there was often a complete abuse of power where young girls were yanked off the street and examined when they weren't even sexually active, it left some of them with terrible gynaecological problems for life

It happened in Egypt during the protests. Women were arrested and subjected to "virginity tests" in front of groups of soldiers.

There are now far fewer women in evidence in the protests - womens groups say that they were singled out and treated harshly in a variety of ways to send out a message.

Where I work, nhs hospital, they definetly won't do an abortion until a scan has been carried out as they say otherwise they won't know what gestation the fetus is. Now I don't work in gynae but as a student I was there for 4 weeks and saw a lot. Women certainly didn't have a choice about having a scan. It was very much compulsory. If they couldn't do an abdominal scan they would do a vaginal one.

Viva you reckon that if a rape victim wants an abortion the NHS will refuse to give her one unless she agrees to a trans-vaginal scan?

And you are missing the point that this is lawmakers saying that they must be done, not doctors, the doctors say it should be left up to them what tests are done and in what manner.

but if it's true that mostly those doctors are republicans there is probably not much insurrection from those quarters

do I mean insurrection?

viva we're talking about scans via the vagina not abdominal ones. are you saying that vaginal ones were done as standard? as far as i know abdominal ones are given usually.

I agree with Viva - as far as I am aware scans are routine in the NHS pre abortion, in order to determine gestation (they are in the area I live in). If the woman refused to have a scan then how could there be certainty that the correct procedure for gestation was being used?

No I'm not saying that vaginal scans are standard. I'm saying they are used in this country prior to a termination if an abdominal scan doesn't work. Women do have to consent to it and if they didn't consent then it wouldn't be done, but then neither would the termination. I never saw anyone not consent but I would guess if they didn't consent they'd have to come back a week later to see if another abdominal scan would work.

But the article is saying that vaginal scans in Virginia aren't standard. Just to be used in cases where an abdominal ultrasound doesn't work, so the same as here.

I do take the point that in Virginia it isn't the doctors who want this and I agree it ought to be up to a doctor and decided on an individual basis if they feel a scan is needed. But I really don't think that happens here, if it's hospital policy that every woman must be scanned prior to termination then the doctors still aren't getting a say in treatment of individuals.

I'm just surprised that people don't seem to realise that it happens here already.

I feel a bit like a child realising for the first time that the world is Not Very Nice, although hardly for the first time.

Well in the 90s it certainly wasn't a requirement, at least not in the places I lived. I am quite shocked by that.

Same here in France: you need to have a scan to determine gestation and if nothing is visible on the abdominal scan, you need to have transvaginal one. There is also a compulsory one week wait between going to the doctor and going to the hospital to sign up for termination (which is then performed within next few days).

It makes sense to me that it is better to be certain of gestation and to make sure it isn't ectopic pregnancy etc, but I agree it shouldn't be the lawmakers deciding and it is clearly a politically motivated decision.

I think the law where you have to look at the scan is active only in Texas.

Why do you feel that there is a problem with scanning though? The specific procedure used to abort the pregnancy depends on gestation, so that needs to be determined.

why do abdominal scans sometimes 'not work'?

Mitchie so do i. Its so hideous i can barely comprehend it. And yet apparently there is no need for feminism anymore. We ve got our equality already. .
Its still a long way away.

I can't see in the article where it says it will definitely be a trans-vaginal ultrasound, am I missing it? I also read the link to the bill itself, where I couldn't see it either. However, what gives this away as a totally anti-choice bill, and ideologically based rather than about the women's health, is that the person doing the scan will be required to get the woman to sign a certificate saying she has been offered the opportunity to see the 'fetus' and hear the heartbeat and that this certificate must be kept in her medical notes. Since this is clearly irrelevant to the health care professional's need to see how far along the pregnancy is, it's clearly a move to persuade the woman to change her mind about the abortion. Terrible.

Abdominal scans sometimes won't work due to high bmi.

Or won't work if the gestation is too early, normally prior to 6.5 weeks I think. Though if they can't see anything they won't just say that's ok, you must be earlier than 6.5 weeks so let's book you in for a termination. They'd be concerned that it's an ectopic they're missing, or someone who isn't even pregnant. So they will want to actually see the fetus.

Viva - I don't think it's a case of people not realising that scans are used in the UK to additionally confirm the pregnancy and also its placement - from the bpas website it's made very clear what a woman would be told when seeking a termination.

It's the attitude and wording of the Bill that's at issue:

"Abortion; informed consent. Requires that, as a component of informed consent to an abortion, to determine gestation age, every pregnant female shall undergo ultrasound imaging and be given an opportunity to view the ultrasound image of her fetus prior to the abortion. The medical professional performing the ultrasound must obtain written certification from the woman that the opportunity was offered and whether the woman availed herself of the opportunity to see the ultrasound image or hear the fetal heartbeat."

That isn't about ensuring best medical practice - if it were, the wording of the bill would be very different and be aimed at doctors.

forum.sofeminine.co.uk/forum/f61/__f439_f61-Cant-see-baby-on-scan-so-cant-have-medical-abortion-yet-but-i-am-pregnant.html

Marie stopes insist on ultrasounds as well, ironically the woman here is upset because they won't do a vaginal scan.

wodalingpengwin - I think it was something about capturing such detailed images that it means doctors will more than likely have to do trans-vaginal scans on most if not all patients, they have to see the organs and stuff

I think?

viva is spot on with her info