Does some of the hatred of social workers stem from it being a female-dominated profession?

[Charlotteperkins]

On the back of the 3 very long threads this week following the BBC programme on social workers.

They are probably the most vilified profession.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that there is evidence that there is a pattern of professions (eg teaching) which decrease in status when the proportion of women in them increases.

Something to mull over...

I think it's a bit angels on pins to go on about how it's not social workers who remove children, but courts tbh. Just as criminals don't blame judges for their sentence, they tend to blame police officers, people blame the people they've actually had face to face dealings with, not the people above them IYSWIM.

Of course it's true that SW's don't have the power to take DC's away, but courts don't just randomly decide to make orders to remove children, they make those orders at the request of a SS dept.

Does anyone know how often those requests are refused? What percentage of requests for removal of children, are turned down by courts?

On my social work degree there was 5 men to 35 women to start with (people dropped out throughout the 3 years though). Also the majority of people doing the degree were over 35, there were only 3 people younger then me and I am almost 27.

Oh and none of them I would have described as middle class! All had their own life experiences which led them to wanting to be a social worker.

Birdsgottafly Mon 06-Feb-12 20:09:56
"The general public cannot grasp the concept of the needs and safety of the child being the most important factor in deciding what action to take.
...

It is a scary thought that someone can judge your parenting and find it wanting, so you can lose residency of your children. This is because of a lackof understanding and knowing the process."

You don't think in some cases it could be because they think of the damage which may be done to the children in the case of the wrong action being taken?

As someone who is daily having to deal with the fallout of wrongful suspicions in the past, I hate the implication that my anger and resentment is about my own selfishness and my failure to put dd first. I am angry and upset because the damage it has done and is still doing to my dd.

Whether I understand the reasoning behind what went on or not is neither here not there, because I am not the one having the breakdown, I'm not the one unable to ask for help from professionals, I am not the one cutting myself.

As I am always at pains to point out, the damage was not in this instance done by SWs; it is however the kind of damage which could equally well have been caused by SWs misjudging a situation, which is why I do find it worth mentioning on these threads where the supporters of SS speak as if the needs and safety of the child could never, ever be compromised by intervention and that the desire to avoid unnecessary intervention is merely about the interests of the parent.

Well judged interventions are in the interest of the child - like the amputation of a gangrenous limb; the patient will be better off afterwards. But if you make a mistake and amputate a limb that was healthy, then the patient will be worse off. No doubt it happens rarely, but when it does there is no point in trying to pretend the patient hasn't come to needless harm just because the intervention was meant to do good, or to label anyone who points out the harm done as selfish and unable to understand that the patient's best interests had to come first; that, after all, is precisely why they are complaining.

Speaking personally, it's because the majority of the social workers I have had dealings with have been pretty much useless. Whether this is because they don't have the authority to help, I don't know. I have found that the goalposts move constantly, and it's always to their advantage rather than ours.

I apologise, that was a bit sweeping, if you're a great and dedicated sw, would you mind moving to Lancashire?

i don't think it has much to do with women in the profession as the fact that sw has to interfere with the most basic aspects of peoples lives, the way that they parent their children. In terms of the work, there are the people who have issues and need support and you know are good parents and you know that they are not going to hurt their children, and they don't get enough support. then there are the people who you are worried about and they don't want you in their lives and you are on their door step every week. doesn't make you a liked profession.

I would hate to be a social worker. It's such a politicised job, it's incredibily difficult, they have very little real power, their vilified by the public, they are poorly paid for what they do their goals posts are always being moved, there aren't any clear boundaries around what they deal with and they have ever expanding caseloads, leading to work and stress overload. GPs, on the other hand, have a clearly defined remit, can refuse to see patients if they've run out of time, have a very strong union, and have managed to hold onto the respect of the general public, although this is decreasing. Most I know are also are very patronising towards social workers. People become social workers because they care about others. I am constantly shocked at what a bad press they get. (by the way, I am not a social worker and don't have social worker relatives so have no axe to grind)

shockers Whether this is because they don't have the authority to help...

You have probably exposed a very pertinent point - Social Workers, like the rest of the great mass of employees, are are the whim of senior managers who do NOT have day to day contact, or an awareness of the nuances that guide and influence daily life for many of the people the SW'er works with.

In many instances Managers are looking for the pertinent, to them, facts that might lead to a child being removed, or a child having no further contact with a parent etc. A frontline Social Worker may actually say that Mum/Dad is doing a good enough job...but the wheels are set in motion against my assessment/opinion - currently struggling with several such incidences - and it is not pleasant...for the family or for the Social Worker. The distrust sets in, and no point telling a family 'I don't/didn't agree with what's happening now' because as the person working with them, well, it MUST have been me that caused this.

I have experienced an equally split range of male and female bosses in a Social Care/Work career spanning 22 years - I would choose a male boss every time now sadly, but the BEST ever boss I had was an incredible woman - she inspires me even now, despite the job killing her at a horrendously young age. I miss her every day - I just hope I can live up to her ideals, courage, and amazing responses to a difficult life as a Social Worker.

PreviouslyonLost wrote - "I would choose a male boss every time now sadly, but the BEST ever boss I had was an incredible woman"

Despite having had such good female boss, why would you now always choose a male boss?

Social workers aren't just there to take children 'away', they're supposed to be there to offer help and to refer to other agencies.

Apparently, unless I cause my child physical harm, I'm 'managing the situation'.
Actually, I'm not and I would hazard a guess that my life for the last 11 years with a DD who has FAS and attachment disorder has been just as difficult as any sw. Our situation with our adopted daughter has made us ill both physically and mentally.

I think social workers need to understand that they are not the only ones on the front line. I know they are pushed to the limits at times, but so are a lot of parents and foster carers.

shockers I'm sorry you have such a difficult time but you can't possibly compare yours with that of social workers. They have to follow rules and guidelines so as much as they may want to give you more help, they are faced with very difficult choices and limited resources. You sound very bitter but please don't blame front line social workers who are doing a job as best they can. Their frontline is very different to yours. How would you like to be a social worker, low paid, constantly dealing with other people's misery and being the butt of their clients' frustrations and anger.

That has actually made me really angry. I'll go now.

I would just like to add that it is only SW's that work in CP that are not liked. When i worked in palliative care, i got a much different reaction, people were happy to have our involvement.

Shocker- SW's are front line workers, the foster carers etc are an essential part of the system, it isn't about who is more important, but CP SW's are constanly under attack as workers. The whole system for disabled children is not good enough. Some SW'shave disabled children (i being one of them), we don't have control over the provision of services.We canonly sign post to what is available. I wish that i could have hurried up my DD's apointments in the way i do for clients, or have the help offered that they do,when my husband was dying and i had two SN children "in the system".

I pointed out to one poster how she is always posting negatively that SS get it wrong and all is needed is more support, yet when a family member posts who is bringing up a relatives child, she doesn't attack them asking why they are not giving more support, she accepts that their relative cannot parent.

The SW's report isn't the only report to go into court, Family Support, HV's, psycologists, GP's, School etc all make up the evidence.

I would say that 35% of my removals applied for are not upheld. But then further crisis hits and usually the figure is left at around 5%.

When the parenting assessments are carried out afterwards the parents usually admit to a lot more having gone on then we ever knew. More violence, neglect, drug use and emotional abuse (which is difficult to prove), as well as other abuse. There are a minof three different agencies carrying these out under my LA.

The difference in most children afer a few weeks in foster care is astounding.

I would like to add that i (or any others that i know) do not consider ourselves low paid, we are all from WC background, though.

The only thing that i would like is more time to effectively build relationships with some of my families. The Family Support Team that are attached to my team are excellent, it is them that carry out what was the old field social work.

I would prefer to be doing that, though, or at least more of it.

vesuvia The person I am speaking of was quite simply an incredible human being, regardless of their gender. Her death was a huge loss personally and professionally. She stood up to the ridiculous demands of the job, and protected her social workers to quite literally her last breath, and was fearless when it came to the rights and protection of children. I admired her so much. In 22 years of working in this field I have NEVER met anyone else who came close, and sadly probably never will.

Currently the majority of middle-management (the ones that I deal directly with) are female - upper levels of management are almost exclusively male. My personal experience of recent and current female bosses make me wish for a male manager - without telling personal and confidential stories, I cannot really explain why this is. It just is a preference for me at the present time due to some awful recent experiences.

shockers Please don't go - yes we should be there to offer help and referrals to other services, and of course we generally speaking do. You sound terribly exhausted and weary of battling not only with your daughter's needs but also with an out-dated and not fit for purpose service. I apologise sincerely to you on behalf of myself and the many other Social Workers who do wish it could be different. You and I may be on opposing sides but probably share exactly many of the same opinions as to what is wrong with Social Work today, it is crisis that brings response. And frontline SW's DO know that these crises could and should be preventable with early intervention from a variety of resources, health, education, camhs etc - but there's no glamour (yes, I have witnessed the buzz some people get from Child Protection work) in this long-term and intensive work, and crucially no funding.

I met a young man I once 'worked with' this week, out of the blue and unexpectedly, he spotted me and raced over to speak to me - he's employed, engaged, had a gorgeous new baby - very much the proud father, a home of his own, and a future that only a few years ago he would never have dreamt of. I was thrilled, proud, and uplifted at his happiness - it was the only thing that, after a truly terrible few weeks at work (boss related), stopped me from from...well, never mind, that's my problem.

I'm in awe of the work that foster carers, carers, and parents do (I'm a parent myself - and my children are affected by the effects my job as a Social Worker has on me).

I accept that it's an unpopular job, but like all 'trades' there are procedures and actions that the general public are not generally au fait with as it doesn't affect them - all jobs are the same, but actually Social Work procedures have to be transparent by their very nature - but most don't have the impact that Social Work involvement can have. The problems outweigh the solutions sadly, here is a link to a very recent death of a child - no active Social Work involvement, drug and parenting support given ( I know of the project attended by the Mum, Family Matters, and know that they will have been utterly devastated by this child's death) www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-16206373

Please PM me shockers if you need an ear - I'll listen.

Jut to add that I have also been uplifted by birdsgottafly posts on this, and other, SW threads recently on MN (We're NOT usually referred to as SS in Scotland - what a horrible connotation)

Cheers birdsgottafly

I think having your children taken away from you has to be up there with the biggest adult fears, its like the equivalent of the bogeyman fro adults. I think thats where the real fear comes in.

Next weeks episode is with a women whos baby is taken away as her bf , who she won't leave has has 14 counts of child abuse against him. will be a tough watch.

I apologise. I wasn't suggesting that we were on opposing sides or in competition, I think I was trying to point out that support isn't always forthcoming (despite being pleaded for) for some, and yet I have friends at my carer's group that have a sw for their children with additional needs. I hate that I would have to say that the adoption is breaking down before ss would offer support. It shouldn't have to get to the point of undoable crisis.

You're right Previously, I am mentally exhausted as my daughter needs constant supervision because of some of her behaviours. I wish you were my sw .

Sorry if I've offended anyone.

schockers no need to apologise, or to think that you could have possibly offended anyone.

MY opposites comment was simply that we are coming at the problems from different sides of the debate - and meeting in the middle. Would be happy to move to Lancashire, or could you move to rural Scotland?

Like so many things, funding for resources can be a hit or a miss - Local Authorities prioritise funding differently, and it's not fair.

I read your post as you being someone that has an adopted child with significant needs? I'm sure you don't want plaudits for that ultimate selflessness (please have a look for Meg Henderson - she's a Scottish writer/Journalist who adopted two girls, and who later found out that they had significant abuse/FAS difficulties that she said were never disclosed during the adoption) however, unless someone lives your life they cannot imagine how difficult every day can be without continuing external support.

It is all about emergency involvement only at the point of crisis - Social Work budgets run into millions of pounds, where the money is directed is rarely where frontline Social Workers feel it should be. I have worked with families where their children have been accommodated (out of authority) at the cost of 5,000 per WEEK - what kind of respite and (essential) support would that afford you? It's not my decision where the money is spent, I wish it was - preventative work is the poor man of Social Work.

Keep fighting for your rights schockers, as will I.

I thought this was interesting Friends I have in social work never seem to be able to say the thing that the rest of us less 'nice' people are thinking. And the results of their inabilities are often in DH's school - chaotic, traumatised children who have no notion of normal behaviour and who seem to spend their lives angry and scared.

OrmIrian Interesting article...

and you're right, I can't say to to parents, get off your arses and go visit your children in residential care without screeching at me that they should be brought to you, or that you don't have credit in your phone to call them after weeks (a year actually) of no contact from you depite SW providing fares, petrol costs, food, etc, or that if you keep abusing alcohol, and physically fighting in front of your child - then no, they won't be returned to your care (oh, and by the way stop telling everyone that your child was removed just because their clothes weren't ironed) or that of course your children's behaviour is caused by you pimping them out as vulnerable toddlers to sexually abusing adults, or that your needs don't come first, and yes, I know you love your children, but your love is killing them emotionally and physically, even if I am just an arsehole, do-gooder, nothing better to do social worker, that should go and deal with some real problems.

I had to do a really, really basic safeguarding session to volunteer in ds's school. The SW running the session admitted they had spent months investigating a family because the child told a teacher 'daddy touched my ninky' (can't quite remember the word but something like this). Dad was made to leave the family home or the kids would be seized and put into foster care.

After ruddy months of this, someone actually bothered to ask the little girl 'what's your ninky?' Turns out it was a soft toy. That her Dad had put in the washing machine.

How much damage to that child and family and how much time and money wasted? For want of a very, very basic common sense question?

This wasn't someone bashing SWs, this was a SW on a course that was supposed to tell us about safeguarding! (Which they could have covered in 5 minutes - tell the child protection bod at school and don't try to investigate yourself.)

Previously thanks for responding to me above - I was the one who asked about SWs' qualifications, not sakura.

I don't know anything about the job and will hold my hands up to that. But. I said, don't SWs only have to have a UG degree? - and your response was 'only a 4 years hons degree + diploma'. Well, tbh that is not that much experience, really, considering the extremely delicate situations SWs are involved in and their significant power to cause harm. A doctor has much more training than this.

I work in HE and I know lots and lots of students with 4-year hons degrees. Not all of them are really that mature/ knowledgeable even if they have a specific qualification. They are all nice enough, but often quite 'young' and I wouldn't like them to have a significant role in deciding whether someone's DC are taken away.

Why do you think it is that so many people report bad experiences with SWs? My only experiences were as a child and were quite negative. I don't mean perceptions, I mean experiences - genuine Q - ?

RevoltingPeasant Sorry if I mixed you up with another poster.

I don't think comparisons between Doctors and Social Workers are such a good example - completely diffferent jobs (and your average doctor will be paid at least 4x as much as me to reflect their years of training!) There is also the historical emphasis on the trust and infallible reliance on certain professions: Doctors and the clergy for example. Social work has evolved along a very different path - like 'The Cruelty' (old nickname) who would take your children away. (Though if you were to delve deeply into practices of the medical profession back in the day, it wouldn't be such a rosy picture either).

In the past, many SW's were qualified to practice by completing only the 2 year Diploma in SW - there are still SW's around today that have ONLY that qualification, maybe we are seeing the tail end of that particular route in people's perceptions, and the necessary degree training now will provide a better prepared and knowledgeable work force in the future?

There are two placements on the SW course, one of 3 months, and one of six months, in different settings and often shift-working, you have to prove you can do the job - plus endless theory and essays when at Uni.

I also have to be registered (in Scotland) and as part of that, have to complete a certain amount of post-registration training to remain on the Scottish Social Services Council register - Social Worker has only in the past decade become a protected term, previously anyone could say they were a Social Worker.

The majority of SW's (including myself) were not that young when beginning the degree. It definitely pays to have some life experience before embarking on SW as a career - there are muppets in post, I've worked with many who couldn't find their own backsides with both hands, on the other hand I've met a few doctors whom I wouldn't trust to put a plaster on a graze

Previously thanks - deffo with you on the doctors front. And yes, I know they will be paid a lot more; as an academic with similar levels of training to a dr not bitter not bitter honest I get that the remuneration is not as good.

I imagine you are right about the greater life experience - but I guess what would concern me is that it's not a requirement. My 21 and 22yo students are lovely, really they are - but they have some very immature reactions. I suppose I'm just imagining them having a responsible position via some really disadvantaged/ desperate person and can imagine it would not be pretty.

Can I ask though, why do you think people report such bad experiences? There are multiple AIBU threads e.g. where someone asks about SWs and loads of people pile in with horror stories. Why are there so many of those? Sensationalism, lying? Are all of them blame-able on the old guard? Or is there a real problem?