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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

is there a special place in hell for women who dont help other women

38 replies

bejeezus · 06/02/2012 12:47

(I am new here)

I read this quote the other day by Madeleine Albright, and I like it Grin

I really feel the sisterly thing. Have done for most of my adult life. Ive never really examined why before. But a quick naval gaze gives me; shared life experiences and biology which gives experiences unique to women

I had thought that 'sisterhood' would be a pretty universal feminist 'belief'. I have been suprised that some posters in this section, clearly poo-poo the idea.

Help me understand- how can you not feel an affinity with other women and be a feminist?

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OnlyANinja · 06/02/2012 15:04

ridiculing a female politician because of her looks isn't on

No, but it's not "not on" because you are a woman and there is a sisterhood, it's just wrong generally, for everyone, male or female.

bejeezus · 06/02/2012 15:08

That's my interpretation of it, yes

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sunshineandbooks · 06/02/2012 15:09

No, but it's not "not on" because you are a woman and there is a sisterhood, it's just wrong generally, for everyone, male or female.

Yes of course it is; that's my point. How come it isn't done as much to men? It is done more to women because they are considered fair game. Why do women have to be judged on appearance as well as merit? IT doesn't happen anywhere near as much to men. It's a form of misogyny. Misogyny affects the status of ALL women in society, regardless of whether or not they are personally targeted, so I stick up for the female politician because in doing so I am sticking up for my own rights and those of women everywhere.

bejeezus · 06/02/2012 15:09

Last post directed at sunshine Grin

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OnlyANinja · 06/02/2012 15:12

If a politician were being ridiculed for their sexuality or their race, I might not share those traits but I would still stick up for them because it's wrong to ridicule people for these things.

It's not about sisterhood, it's just about generally being a decent person.

sunshineandbooks · 06/02/2012 15:25

Well if standards of decency were applied equally to men and women, then there would be no need for feminism at all. Wink

HipHopOpotomus · 06/02/2012 15:33

experiences unique to women
so that would be experiences "unique" to approx 51% of the worlds population then!

StewieGriffinsMom · 06/02/2012 15:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OnlyANinja · 06/02/2012 15:44

Maybe we should set a good example by being equally decent to both men and women, and assessing each case on its own merits?

KRITIQ · 06/02/2012 16:02

Maybe she's thinking of the 9th circle of hell - reserved for those who have committed "treachery," - and the fourth and deepest layer is for those who have betrayed their benefactors.

So, for example, if a woman benefits from changes in the law, brought in by the tireless campaigning of other women or if they get ahead in their field with the support of other women, but then refuse to acknowledge that let alone help other women in return, yep, that's pretty low.

I know I've name checked it many a time, but Andrea Dworkin's Right Wing Women at least gives some context for this phenomenon, as perhaps many expect that if one person was helped out, they'd be more inclined to help others in the future.

There's the old adage that as a woman you have to work twice as hard to get half the credit a man would. There's imho some truth in that - say if you are a woman in a male-dominated field of work where you could be treated by a freak, a pariah, certainly not "one of the boys," so even if you excel, those within the establishment around you will still not believe it to be true.

Then there's the old chestnut about if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, and you will find many women behaving and interacting in ways to avoid standing out as different, as a woman. One of those ways is to show solidarity with the culture and views of those who pull the strings. If the culture is anti-women, that means dissing women, individually and collectively. There is nowt to gain by showing any solidarity with women who haven't quite reached the place on the ladder you have. That risks reminding the influential men around you that actually, you aren't really one of them and you don't actually belong there. You could find yourself out on your ear after busting your ass to get where you are.

It's a kind of survival technique. No it's not noble, but there is a pretty good reason why some women not only aren't keen on helping other women, but sometimes appear to hold other women in contempt.

BasilRathbone · 06/02/2012 16:21

Yep. Wot Kritique said.

I think Madeleine Albright is saying this in the context of a world where men are always helping each other out, without even realising that that is what they're doing. Because women have been so "othered" when they're in the workplace, men see them firstly as women, before they see them as professionals - with other men, they just see them as other professionals and if they respect them without being threatened by them, they'll promote their interests whereas it simply doesn't occur to them to promote women's interests - not because they're consciously being sexist, but just because they simply don't rate their women colleagues as being equally relevant in terms of recommending, networking, passing on tips to, etc.

This is why women's networking stuff is needed. Because men exclude us without intending to or even realising they're doing it (and some men of course, do realise it and do it deliberately). Which is why it's really important to mentor and support other women, because the men who are constantly being mentored and promoted by the men in charge, aren't going to do it for us and anyone who thinks they are, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I wish I'd known this 20 years ago.

bejeezus · 06/02/2012 16:30

That's really interesting kritiq and basil. I will get that book

Where'd the 9th circle of hell from?!

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bejeezus · 06/02/2012 16:33

Wrt my colleague; I'm in a more senior position than her. But it certainly rings true that she aligns herself with the men, for self-interest

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