Sherlock and Endeavour.

[Wamster]

I watched both of these shows and although obviously just TV, I was struck how one of them was really sexist and the other one sympathetic to women.
Ironically, it was the modern-day Sherlock that fell short and not Endeavour, it irritated that the character of Irene Adler -who outwits Sherlock in the Conan Doyle books- is shown here as being simpering and, although clever and resourceful, turns into jelly because of Sherlock's charms.
Also, why couldn't she just outwit him?! He beats her intellectually and saves her life at the end.
By contrast, Endeavour showed the (sad) reality of how women are used and abused by men (the young girls used at orgies; the young girl used as a toy between the two Oxford academics; the betrayed wife) but presented a more sympathetic view of women on the whole.
Women presented as being rounded characters with feelings and emotions.
It is strange of how a character such as Sherlock (as portrayed here by Benedict Cumberbatch) is shown to be pretty vile to women -yet is fancied by a lot of women so it seems-and it is somehow OK when set in the modern day with modern day audiences.

OK, it is just TV, I know but just an observation.

Nice:

"The sultry Pulver joked that co-star Martin Freeman was a little hands on during filming for the scenes too, adding to The Sun: 'Martin is always naughty. 'Martin Freehands' is so true.
'He was like, 'Oh, there she is. She's naked and there's her arse crack and off we go...'"

Wonder if he was groping Benedict in his naked but for a sheet scene.

Nice!

Funnily enough I give no credence to the Sun or the Mail as they take things so out of context.

I will instead believe the Torygraph and the digital spy interview.

And I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone that it doesn't have sexism or misogyny in it, indeed there undoubtedly will be as its set in a modern patriarchal society written by writers unlikely to 'feminists'. Its just that the points raised are debatable as to whether they point to sexism.

Which is why we're discussing it.

Feminists don't have a lot of success as writers of tv series as they spend most of their time whingeing on various websites about scantily clad good looking young women appearing on tv.

LFC, I don't think it ranks among one of the most sexist things to appear on tv, even in just the last few weeks. But it was a show that was mainly about men but appealed to a lot of women who wouldn't choose to watch something more stereotypical. So it is a shame that they have taken it in that particular direction and I hope they turn it around in the next episode, at least for Homes and Watson as presumably Adler isn't in it anyway.

Agree about it not being one of the most sexist things to appear on tv, there is just so much utter crap out there.

Probably why so many women watched it, there's so little else to watch. If you don't like soaps or reality tv or 'fat people lose weight/look at the unfortunate people with chronic Illnesses' programmes, there's not much else.

I'm not convinced that any shows I like hold up particularly well to close scrutiny even if they, on the surface, pass the Bechdel test.

Desperate housewives, greys anatomy, the good wife, house, hustle, the US Office, - all probably pass? But some really dodgy themes in some of my favourites.

there's great stuff on tv if you look in the right places eg BBC4

Such as Proles? what am I missing ?

Have you some recommendations, Prolesworth?

I was going to have a year of watching stuff about women. I've watched Revolutionary Road and Hideous Kinky this week.

Maybe the recommendations are on another thread and I've missed it.

Obviously, I made an exception for Sherlock, so am even more annoyed that it has not matched my expectations!

Found this Moffat quote, supposedly from the Scotsman, but not particularly about Sherlock:

'There?s this issue you?re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That?s the truth. We don?t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands. The world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you?re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you?re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There?s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male.'

Yes, it is worth watching. It is about the relationship between a hippyish mother and her two young daughters (9 and 11 maybe) living in Morocco in the early seventies. Interesting characters, and not stereotyped.

Don't get me wrong I'm not going to boycott sherlock or anything!

Just for me, it was a shame that a program which seemed a bit different, and was all about the puzzles and personalities, suddenly descended into a load of more mainstream things ie ooh look a naked lady and does he fancy her and does she fancy him and all the rest of it.

"There?s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male."

So he thought he'd even things out by disrespecting women on screen?

There's nothing worse than whinging white middle class men pretending they are victims. The whole world is devoted to their preferences.

thunderbolts yes that entire passage was awful

well there's a new Danish drama series starting this Saturday on BBC4: Borgen

and of course The Killing and Spiral, both shown on BBC4

Spiral has an absolutely cracking pair of female leads

oh and the very excellent adaptation of The Slap was shown on BBC4

I will have a look at Spiral.

I read a quarter of the Slap, and then threw it on the fire. So I doubt I'll be watching the tv adaptation.

'There?s this issue you?re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That?s the truth. We don?t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands. The world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you?re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you?re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There?s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male.'
WOW. This should be the motto for us NeoFeminists who have thrown off the shackles of the Victim Feminism of the 1990's.

To be honest, Sherlock is rubbish TV -sexist or not- it's glib, too f*cking clever by half, and the latest episode designed as a wank fest for 13-year-old boys.

I watched Jeremy Brett's version of Holmes. Yes, he is paternalistic in his treatment of women, yes he does see them as 'other' but he is sympathetic to their plights and a sensitive soul.
His drug abuse is also clearly shown.
It grates that the BBC are so 'right on' and 'edgy' by showing a dominatrix (how racy!) but shy away from showing Holmes for what is a major part of his personality- that is, that he is a functioning, productive drug user.

Agree with your summary of Sherlock there wamster.

Re: The Slap - I never read the book (which sounds crap). The TV version stands as a brilliant piece of TV, different from/better than the book, so many people said. I'm not going to spoil it by reading the book. Apparently it's full of terrible sex writing.

Wamster agree re the drug use

I wonder why they changed that as well. Are dominatrix's perfectly reasonable for pre-watershed viewing but a spot of drug use beyond the pale?

Another one who enjoyed Endeavour and thought Sherlock was rubbish (very disappointed I was too, as I quite enjoyed the first).

Completely agree the episode was sexist shite.

Just wanted to point out that Moffat made a similar decision in Doctor Who. Adler's first meeting with Holmes has her naked; Amy Pond's first (adult) meeting with the Doctor has her dressed as a stripper sorry kiddies, "kissogram"