Omnibus TV programme on Andrea Dworkin's Pornography work

[thunderboltsandlightning]

Worth watching whatever side of the pornography debate you are on. If you're anti-porn it will inspire you, because Andrea Dworkin is just amazing, if you're pro-porn it will let you hear actual anti-porn arguments rather than the strawmen that are usually used to characterise the anti-porn position.

Part of the reason why I experience post traumatic stress disorder now is because I stood up and blew the whistle on a racist sexist 'patriarchal' ward manager whilst working as a psychiatric nurse.

so i do not 'defend the patriarchy'. But I am aware that as a Western woman, I remain 'on guard' for my own internalised patriarchal constructs of womanhood. Because anyone who claims to be free of them is deluded, in denial or lying.

And Dworkin lived and worked to protect our right to disagree and continue to clarify what is and what is not feminism.
Suppression of any debate is patriarchal. It's what men do and have done. Watch out for that.

Because a major part of Dworkin's work involved spirited 'debate' with folks like Paglia.

Can Dworkin only have power if we eliminate all dissent? God, how disrepectful. The ultimate accolade for Dworkin is that she was polarising and triggered such dissent and outrage. What power her words had. And have.

I will always remember McKinnon's 1992 victory against Donald Butler because what attracted me to it was the strength of the counter arguments against it by people like Paglia.

We are drawn to feminist argument via different paths. Paglia's reposte is another way in.

No Dworkin lived and worked to end male violence against women. Guess they didn't teach you much on that university course.

I'm not supressing debate, but to reduce a political movement for the liberation of women down to mere "debate" is disrespectful and inaccurate.

Have you watched the programme yet, because it's the topic of this thread.

It's been interesting 'talking' to you anyway. I'm now off to watch it again and refresh. Thanks for the link and the link to the foaming at the mouth anti's too lol.

"Because a major part of Dworkin's work involved spirited 'debate' with folks like Paglia.'

I'd be surprised if Dworkin ever bothered even to address Paglia, let alone debate with her. If you've got an example of a single time it happened I'd be interested to see it.

On the other hand whole academic and media careers have been built on attacking Dworkin the way Paglia did. It's one of the entry fees into the patriarchal handmaidens club.

She lived and worked to end male violence BUT by necessity a major part of that work involved ripostes to critique. have you ever known a feminist to not have to answer critique?

The debate is vital! How on earth do you avoid the same kind of patriarchal indoctrination that you claim to oppose if you do not allow for its central value in the shaping of what the feminist movement is?

Patriarchal domination is objective fact but we need debate to clarify the many many insidious forms that it can take.
Look at the comments made regarding the claim that Western feminism or third wave ignores non western women's issues in favour of arguing about 'who does the housework' (attack by Ayaan Hirsi Ali). This needs debating. It needs to be part of our work. We need to be more globally relational.

Oh god, i really must go. But i am enjoying this (is debate a dirty word lol)...

This is paraphrased from a reply I just wrote on this thread - it's something this documentary has helped me think about ...

I think the number of men who genuinely realise the harm that's done in the industry and still insist on using porn is probably very small.

There is the guilty thrill but mostly it's to do with watching something naughty, dirty and 'forbidden'. Even with violent porn, I think most men believe it to be consenting - they think they're watching actors playing out a fantasy because that's what the industry wants people to believe.

Willful ignorance is very easy in this area. The few voices telling it like it is are drowned out by the industry's own propaganda. I think education can be very effective for 'normal' porn users. There are a helluva lot of those - what if they all read up on the reality and stopped using porn as a result? The few sick arseholes who would still get off even if they knew they were witnessing abuse would stand out like sore thumbs once the rest of society stopped condoning what they're doing.

What's your view on pornography nursenic?

The 'modern' debate for pornography takes the view that women are now on an equal sexual footing with men.

That is not so.

I abhor pornography and the 'raunch culture' that we live in. i deplore that every article about women (especially successful educated women) always includes a description of their physical state and appearance.

I think programmes like 'The (se) X factor are more insidiously dangerous than overt pornography in their casual acceptance of and promotion of the sexual commodification of women and girls.

I deplore the 'kids' film, the latest Transformers film which opened with a tracking shot taken between an female actors legs walking upstairs; so close we could see the downy leg hairs.

But i needed to read views of people like Paglia in order to arrive at my own conclusions and to be able to engage in the debate.

Her comment on Dworkin re 'food' is a perfect example of internalised sexist views.

Thank you, thunder!
I really look forward to watching this.

(And yeah, Paglia's an odd one. Feminist? Like the Pope's Jewish.
I did agree with Paglia's ascerbic criticism of Madonna after the poor horse chucked Madge on the floor a couple of years ago, but that was the one time I haven't found P's views to be publicity seeking vitriol that's apparently mostly directed against women.)

Great link, though. Thanks again!

I watched this last night. I actually found it quite horrific esp the women talking about their childhood experiences and how their families had abused them.

A far cry from the fun and frolics- the way porn is widely thought of today. It made me think how things have gone backwards.
Why don't they make documentaries like this now?

Why don't they make documentaries like this now?

Some production companies do - and very occasionally major TV companies actually air them. But I guess that on the whole they're not really considered 'bums on seats' material, are they? (the more bums on screens, the more bums on seats, presumably, is how the reasoning goes)

The days when public service broadcasting really was that and not trying to compete with Murdoch's evil empire are long gone. (But who knows, maybe the financial mess we're all in now will allow for some sort of shift in values. Let's hope so.)

Do you remember the days when Andrea Dworkin used to appear on 'After Dark' on Channel 4?

I remember "After dark" very briefly was it a discussion programme? Do you remember " oranges are not the only fruit" what chance that something as quality and well produced
as that would be a drama today?

I know, I know, Scarlett. Do you know, there was a National Boring Day, or a Summit of Boredom or something yesterday, in which dullnes was celebrated? And an article in yesterday's Guardian (I found it on the train, honest) about how mainstream culture now revels in the dull?

I know there have been massive cuts over successive years to drama funding -all started with Thatcher's promotion of a 'heritage industry' rather than 'culture' (says it all really). And look what we're left with: X-Factor and Downton Abbey.

Actually, I know there was a lot of crap around inthe 80s, but somehow it was enjoyable crap (possibly because it was set alongside the deliciously intense soul searching of the likes of.... After Dark!) - which reminds me, yeah, it was a discussion show late on Fridays on Channel 4 where Dworkin and others (all sorts, Roger Scruton for example) used to sit on red sofas in a black studio heatedly debating contrevershall topics. They used to carry on right through the commercial break, so you'd miss a bit every 15 mins, which was always excrutiating.

Used to watch it after first teenage trips to the pub, then on to surreal Hungarian animation and foreign language late film. Flippin' marvellous, it was!

Brilliant documentary. Thanks for posting

God yes I remember it now - and the animation! I was so young but something really changed in our media system, I can't argue it succinctly but it's lowest common denominator tv now and so dreadfully dull you are right.
I don't want to get all conspiracy theory but it's like they don't want us to feel, to think! And the most poignant thing about AD from that was her raw strength of feeling. How dangerous " they " must find that.

Where would a seriously sexually abused woman have a voice in the framework of documentary now in the way that piece was produced? Wow

I loved After Dark and all those other 70's and 80's documentary/culture/discussion shows.

I still have a video tape recording of the series 2 1988 'After Dark' episode featuring Dworkin in which the question 'What Is sex For?' was discussed recorded with my beloved 'Rapido' programme episodes.

I miss Arena, The South Bank Show, Horizon. Documentaries now are so broad, narrated as though we are all idiots with a big open space where general knowledge and cultural references should be. Everything is over explained.

Newsnight suffers from this dumbing down too.

Re the documentary- I have watched it several times now.

BUT-I don't need reminding of the impact of abuse because in my job I am faced with the consequences every single day in the testimonies of those clients/patients I work with.

The percentage of women with serious mental health problems who have experienced abuse either in youth or as an adult is sadly, very high.

And to my continued distress, our mental health system with its short-medium focus upon costs to outcome is ill equipped to provide the medium-long term support and therapy that is actually required.

As a mental health community nurse (CPN) I am expected to meet and assess a client's needs, establish a rapport and treat their 'presenting problem (s)' all within a ten week CBT programme.

And CBT is seen as a magic bullet when it is a blunt tool effective for only certain issues; the less esoteric and more outcome orientated issues such as phobias, self esteem issues, low grade depressive cognitions etc etc.

Male Psych managers love CBT. They like 'fixing things' lol- wryly.

Thank you for posting this, thunderbolts. So powerful. Everyone should watch this.