group dynamics in majority female/minority male groups

[margerykemp]

Has anyone experienced this and noticed any interesting patterns?

Happy to help
www.eric.ed.gov/PDFS/ED502646.pdf - look to page 24 cites plenty opf researchers.

As for patterns, I'm rather taken by this one

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MAT, I don't think feminists would argue that girls are incapable of bullying each other, just as I'm sure you're not arguing that boy on boy bullying is harmless. Power plays a part in most group dynamics I should imagine, and this thread is interested in the way the gender power balance in wider society affects the group dynamics of mixed groups.

Feminism shouldn't need to argue that women are perfect in order to qualify for equal rights.

The links to the others should prove informative.

What's the best way to deal with that?

Sitting fuming (my usual strategy) isn't satisfactory.

Oops, I have just seen this thread has moved on and RL is calling me away! Damn - will be back soon!

I just wanted to say, re. girls bullying girls/women being hostile to women, that I think that concept of 'gatekeepers' (is that the term?) is relevant here - women who judge other women harshly, according to the standards of the patriarchy. Some majority-woman groups can be very like this - especially when we're expected by society to show the men who're present that we're not all like Sheila over there, with her hairy armpits, or Jane who keeps insisting the men not dominate the conversation ...

Missy and SGM well said. I am not disputing that female on female bullying is horrific, as in male on male or male on female, it is the implicit 'girls are more bitchy' that bothers me.

I would love to watch my ds's class at school where girls out number boys 2 to 1 as I think it would be fascinating to see the dynamics in a set of young children.

SinicalSal, try diverting your fuming into physical exercise - do 50 pressups and run around the block twice - who says feminism can't be good for your figure?

Oops, my post too is out of context, it's moving so fast, sorry! I meant how do people deal with men making your point, and it suddenly being deemed worthy of consideration.

I think the tern you are looking for is 'handmaidens' ella totally agree.

Blackduck - yes, and the idea that girls' so-called "bitchiness" is somehow worse and more devious than boys' "more honest" bullying.

EllaDee - I agree - I think when women want to curry favor with men they will often seek to distance themselves from feminism and the easiest way of doing so is to put down other women. I have one particular friend who always does this when in the presence of the one man in our group. It's very frustrating.

SinicalSal - ha ha! (did you do the exercise anyway?) um, how about slapping hand to head and yelling at top of your voice "Of FFS, I just SAID that! I know I don't have a penis but I thought this was the 21st century not some MadMen scene from the 1950s!".

Actually I wouldn't know, seeing as I haven't really had any original ideas in my life Apart from when I invented Nylon of course ...

An interesting link www.ucalgary.ca/iejll/soohoo . If female to female bullying is less likely than male bullying, to be addressed within schools resulting in those females having lower esteem, school attendance problems, school transfers, bulimia, acting out, depression, etc., it will impact on their adult life and opportunties for success.

According to Rachel Simmons (Odd Girl Out) - One of the hardest things for me as an interviewer was to listen to the stories of adult women. These women, in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, still carried with them the vestiges of victimization. They told their stories with unusual clarity; they could remember the clothes they wore, the food they had eaten, the words they spoke on the hardest days of their girlhood. These women reported a life filled with troubled relationships with other women. Most difficult for them was trusting other girls or women afterward.

No messy but I bet if I had, I'd be a nutcase. Then 5 mins later a male colleague would do it, and he'd be admirably fit and dedicated

My friend is a primary school teacher and she also says that re the boys/girls bullying thing. I agree with her really, after all it's easier deal with hitting - it's pretty unambigous, than with the more subtle forms of exclusion etc.

Thing is the poor little lad being hit is also being excluded, teased, talked about to some extent too. The problem from a feminist perspective is conflating the fact that girls are more likely to use ambigious tactics with the blanket statement Girls are devious and bitchy.

Same friend, incidentally has many many stories about males in the glass elevator in her profession, Male headteacher, as was the last one. Tiny percentage of male teachers, who get the kudos from the other teachers, the head (natch) and parents. But those re just anedcdotes, of course.

Thinking further, it's ridiculous to say males re more direst in their bullying/harrassment/undermining. By the time they've got to workplace level they've certainly caught up. Very few are still at the bottom pinching level of sexism, which is direct and easier to deal with.

They're the ones talking over other people, not hearing womens contributions, suggesting golf and lapdancing clubs s suitable client entertainments. None of that is explicit, 'women do it too' yadda yadda. It's devious and bitchy and very hard to handle.

mmmmmmm, i know i shouldn't put this here, because it's thread about thread stuff, but i was screaming 'handmaiden!' at the top of my lungs duirng that 'sensible news reporter does bunting' q and a. i'd so love to talk to her about her reasons - i mean, it is of course perfeclty acceptable for a working woman to enjoy a nice bit of domesticity, but i just had a horrible taste in my mouth as though it was a nice money spinner that meant she wasn't too threatening to the patriarchy at all, and might be able to keep her job when she lost her looks. not that the uk like their news chicks purty, or anything. oh no. but i resisted using the term handmaiden on the thread, as i was mostly irridescent with fury at the title of the damn book and wasn't amking much sense. but i'm over it.

MAT I don't think anyone said they thought that female on female bullying is less likely than male on male or male or female, but was questioning whether it is worse (not that it is a competition anyway). I, for one, amy not disputing that it happens and you have found reports etc but its the notion that females are nastier, bitchier and harsher. If that is indeed the case perhaps we should be asking why that is the case, but I think that is another thread.

I think peer pressure is there for both boys and girls, it may exhibit itself in different ways, but that doesn't mean it is present. I know men who were bullied at school and can equally recall every momnet of it.

Sincal - very true re men in the workplace - lots of insiduous ways of sidelining women.

I think the interesting thing about bullying is that, regardless of gender, it plays on the harmful patriarchal stereotypes that exist in society to put down its victims. For example when my DS was bullied he was called "gay" even though the kids probably didn't have an idea of what that meant. It was just an available insult with which to hurt.

And one of the insults this super mean girl levelled at me at school was that I had no boobs!!! LOL......

eejit

but when comparing male/female bullys, arent there just the ominipresent double standards being applied again and again again

i just dont think the same vocab is used when a man says something bitchey.

Blackduck, the tactics used in female and male bullying do vary and I didn't put any labels to them. Research, is indicating it is different and female/female bullying research is way behind that which studies male bullying.

I agree Tilly.

Think of your average worker drone (like me for eg) moaning about their boss.

Now switch the bosses' gender. Totally different vocab.

But as Messy pointed out do they vary? or do we just call them different things?