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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Modern culture promotes and supports domestic abuse. Discuss.

47 replies

toptramp · 09/10/2011 22:30

The more I think about it; the more I feel it to be true.

OP posts:
wamster · 10/10/2011 13:45

Modern culture promotes and supports domestic abuse. If this means that old culture did not support domestic abuse, then I disagree with you.
Going through my bookcases-and, believe me, there is a lot of very different stuff in them! I inherited a lot from various sources- I came across a book called: 'Confessions from an escort agency'. Now this is not supposed to be a heavy book, this book is supposed to be light-hearted comedy: in every chapter, the book's heroine gets raped. Can you imagine such a book being produced today in the UK? I can't.

A woman getting raped for light entertainment purposes in a throwaway paperback?

Similarly, I have MAS*H book (to be known as 'Mash' from now on to save the keyboard fingers!) the back page describes how one of the characters, Trapper John, 'raped' a beauty queen.
I know this is supposed to be a dark comedy, but, bear in mind that Trapper John is supposed to be the good guy to the more wayward Hawkeye.

Worse than in the past? Don't think so!

wamster · 10/10/2011 13:51

I'm not saying that women have it easy today, not at all, but worse than in the past (the two books I mention are about 40 years old)? Don't think so.

Peachy · 10/10/2011 14:04

I am not sure it's worse now than in the past: that doesn't mean it isn't shit though. Certainly I know the abuse my nan endured was both constant and accepted (she was disabled and bedridden so could do nothing about it).

It seems different today though- rather than being accepted and not mentioned it's almost coll again. I don't know if I am right but in the nineties just a for a minute with girl power and all that it seemed that women were ideologically strong and a force and now it's back to look at me I am a big man, I can beat up my girlfriend.

Technology is absolutely a new twist on it but there is something more. Recently I have been told by a few people that here would be enough jobs to go around if women had stayed in their place, that youngsters today go awry because of working women (snore...).... is it an unsubtle attempt to put people back in their boxes perhaps?

Mind it's running concurrent with the rise in the use of the word gay as a common term of offence in primary school kids, locally at least an upsurge in racism and even the reappearance of paki as a term and of course the new trendiness of the word retard. Maybe people are just turning into shits.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 10/10/2011 14:07

Tyr, can I just clarify that C.A. is the Children's Act? If so, that was updated in 2004, which is what the courts would now go by. This act amended contact rules so that, in most cases, the NRP would be entitled to access. Apparently, this is for the child's welfare. Why are you so quick to dismiss WA's page on contact?

sunshineandbooks · 10/10/2011 14:09

Tyr, while I accept what you're saying, there is a big difference between legal framework/policy guidelines and what happens in practice.

The Children's Act 1989 was introduced in an era when it was still legal for a man to rape his wife (I think that says a lot about the status of women in family law). This is, IMO, partly responsible for why the notion of parental responsibility is so often interpreted as equating largely to 'father's rights'.

Those involved in the criminal justice system are just people. All subjected to their own prejudices and opinions just as much as the rest of us, including brainwashing about domestic violence and how some women 'make it up' or 'exaggerate it' and how a man can abuse his XP but still 'be a good father'.

KRITIQ · 10/10/2011 14:12

Also, in Scotland the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 and Family Law (Scotland) Act 2006 govern parental responsibility, including residence and contact.

Tyr · 10/10/2011 14:37

sunshineandbooks,

The CA was introduced at a time when it was also still legal for teachers to beat children with implements. That and the despicable idea that a man could legally rape his wife are separate issues. Thankfully, the law in respect of both has now been changed.
The criminal justice system does not deal with contact and residence issues; they are dealt with in closed family courts. Therein lies a problem- you only ever hear the views of aggrieved parties
You are quite correct that judges are flawed human beings like you and I but they are bound by what is a basically sound piece of legislation that puts the welfare of the child at the forefront- not the rights of fathers or mothers.
Courts take allegations of DV very seriously indeed and err on the side of caution if there is the suggestion of risk to the child. There are certain groups who suggest they do not and there are other groups that claim that courts too readily stop contact with fathers on the basis of unsubstantiated allegations or limit them to supervised contact in contact centres.
It is worth distinguishing between genuine cases of DV/SA and the frequent cases of spurious allegations made in closed court during CA proceedings for which there is no real sanction. Again, you only get to hear of this when the courts are compelled to allow disclosure as in the recent case of Vicky Haigh.
Again, don't take my word for it. Place the proposition in the legal section where any number of others will respond.

Tyr · 10/10/2011 14:45

One other thing- the concept of Parental Responsibility is not primarily about the rights of either parent as such and where it is abused the court can place limits on the exercise of it or, in extreme cases, remove it entirely.
In practise, it ammounts to little where one parent is determined to exclude the other. The parent who has Residence, whether de facto or by order of the court, still has control (which is often the real issue at the core of difficult contact issues)

GothAnneGeddes · 10/10/2011 15:10

SMG - I'm sure this wasn't your intention, but it looks very dubious that you've dismissed all of hip hop, except for those nice white boys, the Beastie Boys. There are lots of amazing female rappers, Bahamadia and Jean Grae to name but two and plenty of hip hop (which a worldwide music form now) which isn't into misogyny. There's more then one axis at play when analysing what sort of hip hop becomes mainstream and what doesn't.

sunshineandbooks · 10/10/2011 15:35

Tyr - quite right about the criminal/family court distinction. My error, sorry.

But, I think the date of the rape within marriage act is important. The Children's Act was created at a time when men were still, in part, considered to have rights over the bodies of women. Context is crucial.

You can argue that parental responsibility is supposed to be about the rights of the child, and sure that was the idea behind the introduction of the concept. But how come in practice this seems to mean more gains for men than women? And more punishments for women than men?

It is incredibly rare for parental responsibility to be revoked and steps have been taken to make it easier for unmarried fathers to gain it. Residency granted to men is on the increase (not in itself a bad thing). Men can veto decisions made by female primary carers (again, not in itself a bad thing), non-payment of maintenance rarely results in any punishments or being made to pay up, a man who consistently misses/changes contact arrangements has no sanctions whatsoever.

OTOH, women can have their own lives continually messed about by being stood up at contact times or having them changed at a moment's notice. If she withold it because she's fed up of having her child upset and her life made more difficult, she can be taken back to court (and have to pay for the privilege with the revocation of legal aid for family law) and can actually be imprisoned. Meanwhile, access to the CSA is being made harder and maintenance is being taxed, relegating more women to informal arrangements in which 60% of cases see no maintenance paid whatsoever.

If we're really applying the law in terms of what's best for the child, how come this is going on?

Also frequent cases of spurious allegations - Spurious? According to whom? Insufficient evidence is not the same as false. Given that DV affects 1 in 4 women and that single mothers are a third more likely (I think, though will have to check) to have experienced DV than other women, I think the majority of women who claim abuse in the family courts are telling the truth.

Courts take allegations of DV very seriously indeed and err on the side of caution if there is the suggestion of risk to the child.

No they don't. They do when there is an overwhelming burden of proof, but this is rarely the case. That doesn't mean it's not happening though. Granted that's not the court's fault, but it's something our politicians should be addressing. We need to determine other ways of assessing a man's risk to his child and/or ex-partner, such as psychological evaluation. Expensive and difficult? Yes. But worth it? Absolutely. As a tax payer I'd far rather see taxes spent on this than introducing married couples tax allowances, which will do nothing to diminish DV or protect women and children. And let's not forget that only a small number of separating couples are going to be calling for this. Most couples manage to sort out residency issues without bitter court battles, so the country is hardly likely to be bankrupted by tens of thousands of women claiming their partners are abusive.

Furthermore, it's time we stopped this artificial idea that an abuser can be a good father. He can't. A child who is exposed to DV is at risk, even if the child him/herself is not the target. A man who abuses his partner is a risk to a child. He is not a good father even if he's never hit or otherwise abused the child. The harm he does to the child by abusing that child's mother should not be underestimated. Therefore, IMO, the rules should be the same as those applied if the man is known to pose a risk directly to the child. That is not the case currently.

StewieGriffinsMom · 10/10/2011 15:38

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StewieGriffinsMom · 10/10/2011 15:42

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StewieGriffinsMom · 10/10/2011 15:43

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Tyr · 10/10/2011 16:22

Sunshineand books,

PR does not mean more gains for men than women and one parent cannot veto decisions by the primary carer in the way that you suggest.
The issue of false allegations is well known throughout contact/residence proceedings to the legal profession (I would again emphasise the "during the course of contact/residence proceedings") Some parents can be vile to each other but independently good parents so it does not follow necessarily that a father (or mother) who has been abusive to the other parent will necessarily be a bad parent or that the child should be refused contact. I would be very wary of basing your views on the one sided accounts you will hear outside of court.
I can assure you that the courts take it very seriously indeed. Once again, don't take my word for it; if you don't want to place the assertion where others with daily experience of family courts will respond, here is a post from one of the countries top divorce lawyers which will illustrate the point to some extent.

www.marilynstowe.co.uk/2011/08/23/vicky-haigh-case/

sunshineandbooks · 10/10/2011 16:44

PR does not mean more gains for men than women and one parent cannot veto decisions by the primary carer in the way that you suggest.

So how do you explain what I posted? How come a woman can be imprisoned for witholding contact but a man who consistently misses it cannot?

And it does in effect grant a veto. I cannot take my DC out of the country for longer than a set period without my XPs consent. If he doesn't grant it I have to go to court, which incurs vast expense and will probably take so long the trip would be missed anyway.

And how do lawyers know about false allegations of DV? Are they qualified professionals in this area as well as in law? ANd if they receive training, who by? There is quite a lot of research out there showing that false allegations of DV are no higher than any other crime (less than 10%). How do you reconcile that statistic with your statement that The issue of false allegations is well known throughout contact/residence proceedings?

And again, which experts tell the lawyers that a person who can abuse a partner is capable of being a good parent? I can't find too many child psychologists who'd agree with that. What about the statistic by the NSPCC that shows that DV is a concurrent feature in 75% of child abuse cases. What about the increasing body of research that shows that abuse is about entitlement and power, not anger and hate, and that therefore an abuser will nearly always go on to abuse anyone who isn't capable of insisting that they be treated as an equal? This makes children particularly vulnerable.

What makes you think that those with professional experience of the family courts are more knowledgeable than people who've been through the system? The question is whether the law helps or hinders victims. Only the victim (real or alleged) can answer that.

Tyr · 10/10/2011 17:11

It is extremely rare for a mother to be imprisoned for breaching a contact order; she will have done so repeatedly, without good reason and in flagrant breach of court orders before that is even a possibility.
It is quite correct and proper that you cannot take your child out of the jurisdiction (for longer than 28 day if you have a residence order) without the agreement of the child's father. That is largely because the child (who I assume to be having contact with her father) has rights which are quite correctly more important than your own.
I am not going to try and explain the rest of what you have posted; it is your view to which you are entitled but it is biased, subjective and just plain wrong.
I can't believe this question at the end of your post:

"What makes you think that those with professional experience of the family courts are more knowledgeable than people who've been through the system?"

The answer is that they know what they are talking about but I'm surprised that you even posed that question.
I doubt that anything I or anyone else says will convince you that you are mistaken, so probably best to give up........

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 10/10/2011 18:27

Lovely silencing tactics from Tyr, there...

Tyr, my DS has no contact with his father. None. Nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch. If I took DS out of the country for more than 3 weeks (or it was last time I checked) I'd need the lovely, ever so responsible father's permission to do so. So, even though he contributes nothing towards DS, in any sense, he still has a cuckold over my personal dreams of moving abroad.

The courts still allow the father to have a hold over the mother.

BTW, what do you call it when the father repeatedy breaks contact visits with his DC? I'd call that emotional abuse.

sunshineandbooks · 10/10/2011 18:52

Maybe agreeing to disagree is the best option, because I see your views as entrenched as my own with the same degree of flawed reasoning as you obviously see me as guilty of. There are an awful lot of assumptions in your posts.

Why assume that leaving the country for more than a 28-day period is a mother's being selfish and placing her own desires over her child's best interests? Far from making it difficult I bent over backwards to facilitate contact, but in the case of my XP he can't be bothered to see his DC more than once every 6-8 weeks. That's hardly unusual.

And I stand by what I said. If the system is going to enshrine in law a formal punishment for witholding contact (regardless of whether than sanction is actually used), then it should do the same to non-resident parents who fail to honour contact. That's what is biased.

Also, because you have chosen not to engage with my point about lawyers/judges knowledge of domestic violence, how do you expect me to change my mind? I'm open to new ideas and changing my mind. Please, educate me. Please tell me what training the lawyers and judges receive on DV and by whom.

Why is my last paragraph so outrageous to you? Are you saying that women who are forced to hand over their children for regular contact with an abuser don't know what they're talking about? That their first-hand experiences count for nothing because it doesn't accurately reflect what the professionals have been taught? Because that's what it reads like to me and it sounds arrogant.

I'm all for recognising that objectivity and education are important, but it isn't objective if it so contrary to the real life experiences described by the countless women who have to live by the judgements of these 'objective professionals'. History has shown us time and time again that it is a mistake to assume that legislators and those in privileged positions have always got it right and they are often slow to change a system even when it's been proven to be fatally flawed. I'm yet to see any convincing evidence that will make me feel confident that those in the family courts are being educated about DV to a standard that has an accurate understanding about the nature of DV and how it affects women and children.

Lastly, since this is a feminist analysis of the problem, the legal system in this country (though improving all the time) is a bastion of male privilege. It is naive in the extreme to think that this doesn't have an effect on the way in which courts view women and DV, no matter the personal feelings of the lawyers involved or any amount of DV training seminars.

Tyr · 10/10/2011 18:54

DCFD,

I'm not trying to silence anyone; in fact I suggested several times that the assertions be posted in Legal where others with knowledge of the system (other than their own case) could contribute.

You are also mistaken (sorry but you are) re. moving abroad. If you make an application to the court to relocate, it will almost certainly be granted. That would be the case even if the father was involved. So he does not have a veto over your dreams of moving abroad, even if it appears that way to you.

"BTW, what do you call it when the father repeatedy breaks contact visits with his DC? I'd call that emotional abuse."

I'd agree fully with that. As a father myself, I have nothing but contempt for others who disown their children. It is also emotional abuse for a parent (of either gender) to block, undermine or damage a child's relationship with the other parent. Can you accept that?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 10/10/2011 19:08

It really wouldn't Tyr. At least, not from the advice I was given from solicitors when I considered moving to be closer to my parents.

It's just occured tto me that I'd forgotten the fact that children born after certain dates are affected differently. My DS was born in 08, which means both parents have equal PR. IIRC, access etc is a whole different kettle of fish for those with children born before December 2003.

FWIW, I had to block DS's relationship with his dad, albeit temporarily. That wasn't emotional abuse. It was protecting my DS. Not every mother blocks contact for selfish reasons.

Tyr · 10/10/2011 19:26

The issue of PR if his name is on the birth cert and the child was born after Dec 2003 is of little consequence as PR would be granted anyway.
I don't know what kind of solicitor you spoke to but, unless there is some major factor you haven't disclosed, they advised you incorrectly (which seems strange) Providing there are arrangements for schools, childcare etc in place, your application will be granted; if not at first instance, on appeal. The grounds for refusing a primary carer's reasonable proposals to relocate are quite narrow. If the proposed relocation is "internal", ie within the UK, the grounds are narrower still.
I'm assuming that you and the children are resident in the UK?

solidgoldbrass · 15/10/2011 22:59

Well at the moment things are better than in the days when it was legal for a man to beat his wife with a stick as long as the stick was no thicker than his thumb. And women are now allowed to own money and work for pay and live without a male owner. We have made a lot of progress but there's still a long way to go.
The thing is, to acheive full equality, men are going to have to lose some privilege. Tough fucking shit. Men are going to have to accept that they are not more important than women, that equality is not a matter of 'I don't mind you doing what you want, darling, as long as it doesn't impinge in any way on what I want.'

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