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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Advice - I think my friend is being gaslighted, she needs some strong feminists :-)

49 replies

LRDTheFeministDragon · 27/09/2011 11:44

Hi,

Not for me, but so I can help my friend. I want good one-liners or short soundbites about what women deserve in relationships, and about how the 'men just struggle to communicate' thing is really not good enough! My lovely mate has a boyfriend. He is not a horrible person but his attitude worries me. I'll just quote one thing, which was that she made what she thought was a very loving gesture (I won't go into detail as it's identifying, but it was just a romantic thing to do, a pretty common one). He told her she 'crossed a line', but of course, she doesn't know what the 'line' is - and he can't or won't tell her.

Any good one-liners about this, as obviously it set my alarm bells ringing. What other things do you watch out for?

Thanks all!

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 27/09/2011 13:23

i think there is something feminist about it dreaming - you (and i) are quite happy and confident in being single by the sounds of it and we're right to be. however that isn't the case for all women and that is partly about the way they are conditioned 'as women' to see their worth measured in their relationship success and whether they have a man in their life.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 27/09/2011 13:25

The fact that LRD has said her friend doesn't think it is reasonable to have lines (but he does) speaks volumes and is a feminist issue. So many women have that issue.
And what saf said.

SardineQueen · 27/09/2011 13:30

"In my 20s I used to fight to the death to save a relationship, if my boyfriend was acting peculiar I just had to know why and find a solution.
By my 30s I was over it, if a guy started acting strange, ach, move on.
I knew my DH was the right guy for me because there was no drama, just happiness."

I was exactly the same Smile

dreamingbohemian · 27/09/2011 13:35

Well that's a really good point, swallowed, you're probably right.

But it's not always the case though that women don't want to be alone because they are conditioned or buying into sexist tropes.... I had a harder time being single when I was younger but that had to do with emotional baggage from my youth. I was always a feminist but I needed to get that baggage sorted before I was emotionally okay being on my own.

It may well be a feminist issue for the OP's friend but not knowing her, I wouldn't automatically assume it.

I do assume, however, that nobody, men or women, needs to put up with asshats.

theothersparticus · 27/09/2011 13:35

wow, how weird.

Yes I agree that emailing someone to let them know a letter is on the way is a leeetle odd but not anything to get the padded room ready for. I would have considered a letter romantic, depending on the content.

I may have mis-read this but it seemed as though she was writing a letter about her thoughts for the future (of their relationship?) because she found it easier than calling or face-to-face and that sounds a bit worrying. Does she not feel that she can say what she wants to in front of him because he won't listen to her? Or will he react badly to what she has to say? I may be reading too much into this, I'm having an odd day myself.

Until she knows what line she crossed Hmm it's difficult for her to move forward in the relationship. it sounds like he's putting up barriers or maybe he's trying to test her (which is weird)

fluffles · 27/09/2011 13:35

if i was in a relationship rather than married, and my partner told me there was a letter in the post, i couldnt' help think it was a 'dear john'...

maybe she really freaked him out and he thinks she did it deliberately.. it is a bit of an odd thing to do.. but then so is asking to talk about 'the future' when somebody is on holiday - both seem to be a bit odd.

Miggsie · 27/09/2011 13:35

The "crossed a line" thing rings massive alarm bells to me, that puts him in the emotional abuser space, with the other killer phrase "they should know their place".
It basically means the person who uttered this considers themselves top of the hierarchy with the right to dictate what the lines are and that others should obey. Refusing to say what the line is, is another form of control: to keep the person guessing about how they are behaving and to control their behaviour to suit that person.
I suspect he disliked the letter as he people who set "the rules" in their head want to be the ones who keep the notes, write it all down (a common feature of controllers is to keep a diary of their victim's behaviour that they later use to berate them and show them they are inadequate) and by writing a letter your friend has taken "his space" and this is what is annoying him.

I suggest you get some Lundy Bancroft books for your friend and that she leaves him pronto.

dreamingbohemian · 27/09/2011 13:37

Sardine Smile I can't believe what I put up with back then!

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 27/09/2011 13:38

tbh honest it doesn't matter if it is a specific feminist issue dreaming. LRD has asked for help on this board so we will help her. Anything can be looked at through a feminist lens let's face it.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 27/09/2011 13:40

I do agree that no-one needs to put with shit and it is OK to be single. I too put up with shit in my 20's, became single, realised what I wanted, stopped putting up with shit!

SardineQueen · 27/09/2011 13:40

It's a shame we can't imbue our daughters (and sons) with our experience isn't it!

Still I guess each generation makes the same mistakes over and over and over.

SardineQueen · 27/09/2011 13:41

I knew DH was fab due to my wealth of experience and nabbed him pronto Grin

We were engaged within 6 weeks Shock

dreamingbohemian · 27/09/2011 13:49

Ha, I snapped up DH right quick as well!

The funny thing is back in my 20s I probably wouldn't have appreciated him... oh what a boring guy, always doing the right thing and loving me wholeheartedly... Smile

Well you're probably right HandDived, on the feminist thing. Sorry for the tangent OP.

BalloonSlayer · 27/09/2011 13:52

Really don't want to be on here defending possibly twatty blokes but . . .

When I was in my first serious relationship my boyfriend was quite a bit older than me and "a bit posh." Once he dropped me off home and said he had a letter for me, but I wasn't to open it until he had gone. I was quite upset and anxious - I thought he was dumping me by letter. I asked him what was in it and he calmly refused to tell me and insisted I didn't open it till he'd left.

When I finally did open it, it was just a rather tender little love letter, telling me how he felt and how wonderful I was. < pauses while everyone pukes >

So, his rather sweet romantic gesture was almost ruined by my unfamiliarity with that sort of thing, my misinterpreting what it was likely to mean, and getting into a real stew.

I certainly never berated him for doing it of course, and to this day I don't think my worries about it being a "fuck off" letter would have even have crossed his mind. But perhaps some people who like to play games might do something like that on purpose, deliberately to wind someone up? Perhaps the bloke thought he was being played - that HE is being gaslighted? Not sure where "crossed the line" comes into it though.

Original poster
LRDTheFeministDragon · 27/09/2011 15:35

Thanks everyone.

I posted in feminism because I feel (could well be wrong) that it's not just a relationship problem, it's a woman/feminism problem. I didn't really get the 'it's ok to be single' thing much before I got to this board and the normal attitude to relationships always seems to be about fixing what's wrong.

Anyway ... FWIW, reading these replies, what I think worries me is she's got to thinking she's not good at communicating face to face. I think she is fine! She wrote because he said she could write instead of phoning/talking beause he agrees/thinks she's not good face to face. I don't really get it but can't put my finger on why it's a problem.

Why do women tie themselves in knots trying to communicate what's wrong or even what's right in a relationship, anyway?

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 27/09/2011 15:57

Well to be fair, some people are bad at communicating face to face. You may think she's fine but then you've probably not had to delve into any hard-core relationship issues, right? So I think it depends, has she always felt she's bad at it or just with this guy?

I think it would be more worrisome if she felt she couldn't say what she thinks at all -- I mean, writing is still communicating. Do you know if she felt able to write what she honestly thought?

I don't think you can generalise about why women might have a hard time communicating. Yes, I do think women generally are socialised to be less assertive and claim what they want. But it could just be that someone grew up in a household where emotions were never talked about and they just don't have the 'language' to express their feelings.

KRITIQ · 27/09/2011 16:06

Dreaming - wow, I can also identify with the shifting attitude in my 20's and 30's to relationships (only it took me a bit longer to really cop on, to be honest, but at least I did.) Thing is, all the while, I did see myself as a feminist. Maybe I hadn't yet applied theory to practice though! :)

dreamingbohemian · 27/09/2011 16:28

Yes that's the thing -- I considered myself a feminist too! Intellectually I knew I didn't need a man, that it was okay to be single, that I was the equal of any man, etc. But emotionally I couldn't put that in practice.

As important as it is to spread the word that it's okay to be single, I think we have to acknowledge that people may have issues that make it difficult even if they know it's true. So many women grow up in damaging situations, it's not just societal conditioning to blame.

sloggies · 30/09/2011 16:45

Would be a bit concerned that 'crossing the (unidentified) line' was largely about just keeping her unsure what was going on, and part of a 'drip,drip' erosion of her self-confidence.

Dozer · 30/09/2011 19:29

If he said she's not good at communicating face to face, then surely that's a worrying sign too?

Dozer · 30/09/2011 19:30

Presumably her letter was a loving one revealing her love for him and hopes for the future?

If so, and he reacted like that, rather than expressing love in return, then he sounds like a manipulative loser.

scottishmummy · 30/09/2011 21:24

why would you want formulaic one liners?
shes an adult and you can advise but unlikely to change course of their relationship.

snappy mantras sounds too contrived. just be a good spontaneous pal without feeling you have to have a soundbite for every occasion

Yama · 30/09/2011 21:33

If someone told me I'd crossed a line I tell them to fuck off.

Crossed a line? Doesn't she think him a dick after this?

scottishmummy · 30/09/2011 21:36

has she said what the line was?its hard to say not knowing but its not a nice expression

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