Help me digest this please

[LoopyLoopsPussInBoots]

I had a row discussion with my MIL recently, about a variety of things, centering around feminism generally. If I highlight most of her statements and my responses, could you please help me come to terms with how I feel about her now? I did quite like her, but am struggling to get past her viewpoints now.

• Feminism has gone too far. Women are taking men's jobs and it demasculates men to have women working above them or their wives earning more - > If a woman is better qualified or capable, she should have the job. End of.

• Boys are being failed in schools. Boys should be prioritised and less focus should be on girls. They don't need to learn as much. For some reason schools can't give boys what they need. - > (I'm a teacher) There have been so many initiatives to help underachieving boys. Unfortunately, a big factor is discipline. Boys tend to be more disruptive, whereas girls often want to learn Girls shouldn't be discriminated against for being more motivated.

• Women are programmed to stay at home and nurture. Man and male animals have always been the hunters and gatherers. - > So they should 'hunt and gather' in offices? That doesn't apply in the modern working world.

*Things were so much better before (60s and earlier). We should go back to thinks exactly as they were then. {Whole other tangeant, won't go into that}

• More and more young men being unemployed means more antisocial behaviour. There aren't enough jobs, so women should take a step back so the men don't cause trouble. I'd prefer to see women on benefits than men - > Bored women don't cause trouble? The trouble is a lack of jobs, it isn't the fault of women, we need more jobs to be created. And what would this do to birth rates? Surely more children being born to families on benefits doesn't fit into your ideals?

• No we shouldn't be encouraging women on benefits to have children. So many of them have kids with different dads, and they (children of single MOTHERS) are always the ones that cause trouble. Then they go on to have loads of kids who cause trouble and it never ends. - > (SO many issues with this bit!) So, this is all the fault of the women? They are the ones with the kids, them men play no part in this? Do only children from single parent families cause trouble? Do they ALWAYS go on the 'breed' (yuk) in the same pattern? So what would you do about it?

*Well I suppose out options are either a system like China's, or sterilising 'unsuitable' women. - > WTF? End of conversation (pretty much)

There was more, it was very long, and other things came into it, but the post would take all night. How can I reconcile her beliefs with the sweet and slightly frail grandmother of my children?

How old is your MIL? I'm guessing that you will be younger than me (most people on MN are ). I'm 52, so probably - hazarding a wild guess - not that much younger than your MIL. I can assure you that this age is no excuse for spouting this nonsense!

(And my mother was 21 years older than me, and she would have given your mother short shrift as well).

Off out now, but I will give a more considered and (hopefully) more helpful response later.

I heart sports

OP, IMO you need to pick your battles. Start with what you have either the biggest or smallest issue with and work on that one. You aren't going to change her mind on the whole lot, but that doesn't mean you need to just roll over either. For example, the bit about education, clearly you know a lot about that (although I was glad to see your second comment about 'disruptive' boys ) and education is clearly something that your DDs are involved in, so start with that and just chip away at it. Chip, chip, chippity chip!

You still may not change her, but you'll feel better for trying, I think.

it's hard eh? worse when it's your own parents holding hideous opinions and beliefs (believe me ) - so step one is being glad she's not your mum i'd say.

i don't know. it definitely influences how i feel about my parents when they come out with stuff that totally goes against my values and sense of justice etc. it just does. it's hard to respect people or genuinely like very much when they come out with really ugly stuff there being family doesn't undo it i'm afraid.

god that was grammatically hideous sorry.

OP, out of interest, what's your DP like? Because if she brought him up with feminist values, she can't be that much of an anti. Can she?

She is 60. DH totally agreed with me and backed me up at the time. He was shocked too, and still doesn't understand where it all came from - claims he hasn't heard it before.

she wasn't talking about you was she? i mean it wasn't her way of saying that you emasculate her son and should do x, y and z? i'm guessing not but want to eliminate the possibility.

No, but I think DH's redundancy may have been playing on her mind, as was my insistence that only one of us needs to stay at home with the kids, and we are both now looking, to see who gets the best job...

Too many commas, sorry!

I don't mean see who gets the best job in competitive terms, just that we are both now on the market and both have strong skills, should be equally employable, so we'll see what turns out best for the family - not ruling out him being SAHD (he'd love that btw.).

yeah then it was about you really then wasn't it? this out of the blue malarchy is a bit of a coincidence with you and dh both looking for jobs isn't it? the woman should bow and let the man have the job? etc? think we got to the bottom of it.

run it by dh and see what he thinks - good for him to be prepared that that is the attitude he may be facing if it does work out that you get a job and he stays home.

OP your MIL is 60? I'm 57 and found feminism in my early 20s but the "second wave" was in full flourish by then. Saying women of our generation are very likely to hold sexist beliefs is - well, don't want to be rude ... big hello to Sportsfanatic!

Mil and I disagree on just about every issue.

My approach is that I never try to persuade her she is wrong (an impossible task) but I always point out that I disagree with her. I feel it is important to point this out or she would just assume that her views are universally accepted. So I regularly tell her what my views are but try to resist trying to persuade her. I find it hard though. Balancing my strong disagreement with her world views against my desire to maintain a comfortable relationship with her. It is an awful cliche, but we 'agree to disagree'.

Agree with Swallowed OP, she's probably taken great pride in both of you up to now but potentially has her view of your DH very tied up in his role as provider for the family, etc etc. It sounds like, from how you describe your DH, she hasn't really held these views before. Sometimes when we're worried we can hanker back to a 'good old days' that we know didn't really exist??? Maybe????

And a big hello to you Bloodybridget. Agree with you about "our" generation and sexist beliefs. BTW I'm actually 68, so older than that MIL and cannot identify with her views at all. I think she somehow wandered into a time machine that transported her forward 150 years but left her with her 19th century ideas.

I've just retired this year and am still friends with a load of women I started work with in the early 60s. None subscribes to that MIL's archaic views - nor does my DH and he is 74! During our marriage (46 years next week) we've always shared earning, household and childcare duties ignoring daft gender rules. I am beginning to feel that gender demarcation is, counter-intuitively, getting more common, not less.

not counter intuitive really sports - it's the backlash.

You're probably right swallowed - we need a backlash against the backlash....

I think you're right, Sports, that gender roles seem to be more entrenched now than when I was getting the schoool prize for being the only girl to do the 'technical drawing' exam back in the late 80s (not that I was particularly good at it!)

My dh comes from a v. patriarchal family and of the six DILs who have married in (big family) I am the only one doing a job that is not helping part time with a family business - my job determines where we live and could quite easily support the family financially. Which DH's family finds very difficult. I'm sure that my ILs would agree with most, if not all of the viewpoints of the OP's MIL, and I do challenge things when they are said. At the v. least I point out that such statements are illogical and not universal, so whatever else one bases one's patriarchal worldview on, it can't be logic / 'human nature' etc. Then I make a cup of tea! But I also think that just being who we are as a family unit is probably challenging enough most of the time for DH's family, so there's the element of normalising that goes on all the time. I don't believe that people cannot change, though; Ithink that at whatever age, change can happen, often in surprising ways and at unexpected times.

Interesting, a post or two on my other thread. Lovely people kindly responding to my dilemma, but I do detect a hint of patriarchy there.

A quote to share.

"There are very few jobs that actually require a penis or vagina. All other jobs should be open to everybody." by Florynce Kennedy.

And would someone please identify those that do require a penis or vagina, as I cant think of any atm.

In all seriosness some of the best bosses ive ever worked under have been women. And guess what ...... I dont feel emasculated. :o

Trouble is your MIL will be unlikely to change her mind, best to agree to disagree there.

sex workers.

Ummm, condom demonstrators?

I'm 64 and totally agree with Sports. Not one of my friends holds the outmoded views of the OP's MIL either. We all went to single-sex schools and were expected to do well. Wasn't there some research which indicated that girls do better in single-sex schools? Not surprising that there are so few left in the State system, is it?

Not surprising either that gender roles appear to be more entrenched that ever. Patriarchy has been around for a long time and knows perfectly well how to defend itself, especially when so many women work for it and agree with it. Just how far have we really come since the first Married Women's Property Act in 1870?