Women's dress choices

[begonyabampot]

not posted much on this board but seen a few threads recently that have got me thinking. We don't like that women generally aren't treated equally or with the same seriousness as men. That often we are judged by appearance so why do we choose to dress often the way we do. Why often wear clothes that are more uncomfortable or even hamper our movement etc as in high heels and tight clothing. We don't want to be judged on appearance but go out of our way often to make an effort in time and money to get noticed. Men OTOH generally wear more comfortable, practical clothing, don't spend as much time and money on say hair and makeup. I know it's cultural and learned behaviours and expectations to what women should look like but are we doing ourselves any favours by continuing to dress this way and then taking umbridge when men notice the differences we are exaggerating between the sexes. I know that women should be able to dress and look anyway we want without the judgements that are usually made. I generally go for practicality and comfort but still like to dress up and use makeup for certain occasions, i' just curious as to what others think. I really can't wear high heels any more and never did much - why do we do it to ourselves and what do others think?

handived that's interesting and i think i see what you mean.

they are a united force, 'the men', in their suits and shiny shoes and neat haircuts. the women stand out massively against the sea of males and they are not united in appearance but expected to be individuals and can succeed or fail in their choices and be judged on appearance choices.

the men have a collective presence, the women do not, they have simple rules of engagement women do not.

interesting.

Yes that was exactly what I was trying to explore saf.

Yes, i meant to add to my epic post that I thought there was something in that. Also, suits (dark colours, hard lines) make the men's bodies very solid, somehow. Plus,the cut of a suit can re-inforce a rectangular look, no curved lines, everything hyper-masculine. Women in these environments look 'other' in a significant way.

I wonder that too begonyabampot. But, the first insult that is thrown at women by men is usually a comment about our looks. How many times have you made some overtly feminist comment only to have it implied that you're just bitter because you are too ugly to attract a man?

I think it's simply a reflection of the status of women in the patriarchy, always seen as an appendage/potential appendage to a man.

Would we be taken more seriously if we did concentrate less on our appearance though and seeming to exaggerate the physical differences between the sexes. Saying that, on a recent thread many women who worked, say in the City, said that it was accepted that to get ahead generally you had to wear heels and make an effort with your grooming as in make-up and hair etc. Someone dressing more 'frumpily' would be spoken to our not do so well.

Anyone remember John Molloy's Dress For Success? His first book was aimed at men, but when he did one for women he was quoted as saying that his aim was to give executive working women the same kind of 'uniform' as male executives and the same kind of collective 'look' that you wouldn't have to worry about.

Mind you, I have always found that even when I think I am making an effort, whatever I wear seems to annoy or freak out or amuse a fair few people, so now I just dress to please myself.

me too sgb! it's a nice place to get to actually. i even find myself worrying less about whether things suit me or make me look x, y or z and thinking more about whether i like it, enjoy it etc. thank fuck.

I have never understood most items of female dress, heels, tights (tights!!), skirts, dresses (unless large and sacklike to allow the air to circulate in the summer). Work for me means trousers, shirt and jacket and at most a scarf. I don't know why women go to work all trussed up in restrictive/uncomfortable clothing, but i defend their right to do so even while knowing it's culturally dictated and not ideal.

It's all very hard.

What about going out clothes? If women emphasize their sexuality with bosom and leg exposure-clothes, what is the male equivalent? Tight-arse jeans? Is there one? Does it matter?

begony - I think women can look really smart in a well cut dark trouser suit, plain shirt and groomed hair. Heels aren't necessary. No one could complain about that, surely?

I agree Hully but seems for some women working in high powered jobs that wasn't enough but it's all only say so. I would have thought dressing the way you describe and not going overboard to look very feminine and wear lots of make-up might command more respect but I wondered how some of the feminists here viewed female dress in general.

And I do wear make-up and like to dress on occasion.

I can't work out how it's still legal to demand that women wear heels and make up to work

I like the idea of a uniform too. I have sort of evolved one - most days I go to work in jeans and a checked shirt. I'm aware I couldn't get away with this at many places. If I was working somewhere I had to look smart, I'd like to be able to wear a simple trouser suit and flat shoes.

I agree we don't do ourselves any favours but we don't call the shots. Unless we all decided to not play the game at the same time, I can't see how to change it.

I think Sandi Toksvig has it sussed.

when i first started work i used to were a female version of a male suit (jacket, shirt, sensible skirt/trousers). i even had them tailor made so they were a female cut but using the same material as men's suits (more hardwearing).

as i have got older, i like to stand out more (in a good way...). but i am not really interested in clothes (i ask DP to tell me which thing go together as i have been known to wear purple & green or maybe a skirt...with socks (it is comfortable!!!)) so i use the free personal shoppers that lots of the depts stored have.

the best tip for looking smart & authoritative EASILY is to wear a distinctive necklace. necklace = tie for a women.

i am looking fwd to getting really old, & i will be wearing purple & green & a skirt with socks. maybe with a hat i knitted myself. maybe with the knitted yellow tank top i bought recently....

i love the fact that women dont have a uniform!

Nowt wrong with purple and green

i do too thereal but this thread, and particularly what handdived said, has made me think about what effect that has.

i agree though - i like that even when i worked in a smart or smartish environment i could get away with so much more - or rather so much less. a couple of pairs of black smart trousers, a couple of nice skirts (to wear with boots) and lots of different tops and cardi's/scarves whatever on top and you're done. hated suits and always felt wrong in them, i don't personally think suits do much for most women or are comfortable for them - not for me anyway. why would we emulate men's clothing anyway? i always find it odd that they make girls wear ties to school.

but then again this thread has made me think. i've also been thinking about how women's flexibility in clothing and lack of sameness can make them end up in competition with each other and turn it all into a bit of a fashion and attractiveness parade when maybe it'd be nice to be rid of that in a work environment? and each woman being really visible puts pressure on every woman's appearance.

i am lucky to have mostly been reasonably slim (as in varying from slim to a bit chunky monkey but never really having to deal with being out of the socially accepted bounds of size) and being reasonably attractive so i suspect that's meant i have been able to be a bit lazy with clothes, make up and all of that. it would have been easy for me to say oh why bother with all the fuss, why do women spend so long worrying about what they wear or doing their make up and their hair etc etc. it's not quite the same now i'm getting older (for a start being the natural one doesn't get viewed the same way on a woman in her mid thirties as on a girl in her 20's). point being it wasn't a real worry what i wore or how i presented which i thought was me being the way i was but i now realise was me having the benefit of getting approval regardless therefore not having to work so hard at it. i am realising that some things i took for granted as the same for everyone were/are not the same for everyone.

i'm thinking it would be nice in a work environment for all that crap not to be there and maybe a simple, similar, uniform like dress code (such as men have) would facilitate it.

i noticed people talk about women's suits and say things like, 'a nicely tailored' suit. which really means something that flatters my figure, shows off my body well etc. men don't do that! and in not doing that they don't make the differences between their bodies massively obvious - you can't really tell which one has got the perfect arse and great abs etc etc in a suit or which one is a bit chunky and has a bit of man breast going on. with women you can - their clothes choices make all that stand out.

long ramble hope it made some sense

How I envy the men their corporate 'uniform' sometimes!

Prime example for me is the awards do I was meant to go to last week. Had to cry off as just couldn't afford to buy something suitable to wear (combination of current body re-sizing and a smart-ish but
quite relaxed dress allowed during everyday working hours)

Anyway, though it best to decline the invite with the real reason - got told by boss 'oh don't worry, everyone will be looking at

love the badge, Pubes! i shall now wear purple & green with pride.

now we just have to come up with a reason for why skirt & socks should be worn together other than air around your fanjo and comfortable feet

Bibi when a feminist friend was being awarded a very prestigous academic prize, i sent her instructions on how to make her own crown for the awards ceremony... why should only Miss World and the Queen get to wear a crown?

(NB: this topic is really interesting & i should be working so am being naughty but will consider it & post properly laterzzzz)

I think there may be more of an issue with this in workplaces that are only semi formal.

I used to work in luxury hospitality, where junior staff always wear uniform (black suits for both men and women at each of my former workplaces, as it happens, some with skirt option for women, some with ties for men). All my positions (the first excluded) were lower management - all with very strict dress codes.

My work clothes shopping strategy was always the same: 1) Find plain black line in good fabric, good fit 2) bulk buy as follows: 1 dress, 2 trousers, 1 skirt, 2 jackets 3) buy from Primark: 3 short sleeved t-shirts, neutral, 3 long sleeve shirts, neutral.

I also wore the same plain black low heeled shoes for years. Whenever I'd gone through a pair I'd buy exactly the same again. And of course no accessories, ever!

All my non uniformed colleagues followed a similar strategy. The fashion conscious colleague I once had was very quickly made aware of her transgression.

I'm wondering whether this is possibly due to hospitality just not being a very alpha male environment?

I think hospitality staff almost have to blend into the background of the place they work. And you're right, except perhaps for chefs, it isn't a very alpha-anyone environment. The customers/visitors are in the alpha position.

I've always had an instinctive dislike of uniforms, but I like the veterinary scrubs I wear for my job now. Super-practical, comfortable and non-gendered. Of all uniforms, they are a proper visual "leveller", and I can see why they have them in US jails.

If uniforms are worn by everyone I think that's really okay. One of the hotels where I used to work had the exact same uniforms for male and female staff: black trouser suit over black shirt. Of course what completely shattered the equality illusion was that management didn't have to wear them. They simply marked a different power imbalance, so to speak.

Re. The lack of alpha types in hospitality: what's interesting is that hotels IME also tend to be workplaces where there's an enormous amount of playful flirtation. Calling colleagues of either sex "gorgeous" or even "sexy" for example is actually not that unisual. Strangely I never thought of this as threatening the way I would if this happened in an office job; it was the way the job worked and part of an externally very formal and internally extremely relaxed working social culture.

I feel we just seem to make things harder for us then how it is for men. We then moan when people make judgements on our appearances when we seem to go out of our way often to make sure we we stand out, again in a way men don't tend to. I would like to see an end to women having to wear skirts for a uniform or as a job requirement, trousers should be an option. Look at air stewardesses - why can't they wear trousers, it would be much more practical and why do they usually have to wear shoes with some kind of heel when greeting, taking boarding cards. Again i can't understand why make-up is a requirement. Singapore airlines take this to the extreme - the girls are all about a size 8 at most, are young and look like models and wear very fitted, almost restrictive clothing.

Those examples that you give begonyabampot aren't women making things hard for themselves - it is patriarchal organisations doing it for them.

I think blaming opression on the oppressed is misguided. You have to look at where the pressure are to dress like that are coming from. Media images, the companies themselves for example.

Btw I wasn't necessarily suggesting that women having a "uniform" like men was the way to go, just that it does seem to give men an advantage. Come the revolution I suspect workplaces would be managed very differently - dress code wise included.

I would love to be able to afford Proper Tailoring. If I won the lottery or something I would take a big bag of money to a real old fashioned tailor and get some trouser suits made that were sort of gender-neutral but fitted me. I do hunt out men's suits in charity shops and my real preference for any ultra-posh occasion would be a tailcoat and trousers with a stripe down the side. And big boots, and maybe a top hat...

Sounds fun SGB . I used to wear a lot of men's suit jackets from charity shops when I was a student. They were beautifully made and bloody cheap.

I'd say learn to sew - but to be honest it takes years to get to that level if you're only an occasional practicioner.

On a more serious note, though: I sew and I think it has given me a very different attitude to both clothes and body image. I think fitting your own clothes forces you to inspect closely but neutrally your own shape unlike anything else I've done. I actually feel way more body confident than before I started making my own clothes.

Oh I am shit at sewing and really don't have the time or inclination to improve. However, thinking about it, I should perhaps cultivate SIL's sister (is she another SIL? Her sister married my brother, how many siblings-in-law do you get???) who is a trained tailor.