teaching our daughters to be feminine

[Tewkespeggy]

I have a bit of an issue with the school on 2 feminine points

1 the boys outnumber the girls two to one. But the school insists on sitting two girls and four boys on each table. ALWAYS. i just feel that we are teaching our girls to defer to boys because they are always outnumbered. why cant they have an all girl table once in a while. shouldnt we also be teaching our girls to get along with each other?

2 New school rules say that from yr4 all girls MUST wear a tie. I am SO against it becuase it just isnt feminine. I can take you to the square mile and show you 1000's of men wearing ties and how many women? Feeling i should boycot the tie, but feel torn because I let her wear trousers... which are practical in the winter. but what practical purpose do ties on a 8yr old girl achieve?

Canvassing opinions please

In the interests of gender equality, where the outmoded, pointless, unhygienic and uncomfortable garment that is the tie is forced upon all children in a school, the equally outmoded, pointless, unhygienic and uncomfortable garment that is the garter belt should also be forced upon all children in a school.

I don' t think it's unusual to have an unequal gender balance at schools. My daughter's year had 3 boys to every girl and my son was in a class of 2 boys to every girl.

I'm assuming that the ratio rule means that the teachers aren't allowed to sit children in ability groups. In which case I'd assume that the group would be led by the most confident loudest and bossiest child (2 in 6 chance that it would be a girl) and if they didn't know the answer they'd ask the cleverest person on the table?

I'd also assume that there would be at least one daydreamer or really shy person (4 in 6 chance that this is a boy) who will not contribute to the task.

As for the tir- I agree it's pointless but it would be grossly unfair to expect boys to wear them but not girls so it should be everybody or nobody wearing them. Maybe the school didn't want the parents of defunct tie owners complaining?

Yes, sorry SGM. Well, there is a concern, isn't there, with all the very heavily gendered girls clothing in the shops. LGBG etc.

Why would I be surprised? I just think it is very nice that there is a part of their daily life that is insulated from the consumers pressures, especially when those consumer pressures include those of the sort that Pink Stinks and such people identify.

Who is actually wearing a garter belt though?

in my year 6 daughter's class, the girls significantly outnumber the boys - just the lumpiness of random, isn't it? Like the fact there are two sets of twins in that class, and none in the rest of the school.

I've never thought to mind about how they are seated though, I should perhaps find out.

I am never sure what I think about gendered school uniform though. I suspect that dd1's school is eventually going to make it trousers only for girls and boys, and my gut feeling is that this is wrong and girls should be allowed to wear skirts if they want to. From a feminist/AIBU p.o.v., what does anyone think?

Agree that there is still a lot of scope for experiencing consumer pressures in clothing (though my kids are happily oblivious to the differences between cheapo unifor and John Lewis). But it is very much reduced by uniform.

Agree also that some schools have rather absurd and gendered uniforms. But the basic plain white shirt, blue cardi/jumper/sweatshirt, black skirt/trousers is broadly protective imo.

Actually the more I think about the more I just find the whole original post just inconsistant and worrying...

blackduck please tell me why you are worrying about my post. I'M worrying about my post, but at least i know why

Sorry Tewkespeggy not ignoring you, its just not clear in my own head. I find it inconsistant. I also dislike your title 'taching our daughters to be feminine' because I think it has such negative connotations. I want all children to be happy healthy confident individuals .....

Your Thread title and OP seem to be at odds with one another.
I do not want to 'teach my daughter to be feminine'- I want her to be who she is, and gender should not be an issue in a primary classroom.

The seating plan seems fair- but it seems an odd way to arrange children, when surely different groupings might be more appropriate for different lessons - grouping by ability for some subjects, by those that need to learn to better work together for group work, allowing children to sit with friends for things like Art etc.

Ties- meh. I am of the opinion that uniform should be the same for boys and girls in primary, and it should be warm, appropriate, comfortable, smartish. I had to wear a tie to school aged 11-16, it was no hardship, certainly never felt belittled by it . Not sure why the change at Y4 though- should be universal throughout school.

Could you clarify what it is you're concerned about please Peggy, otherwise I'm inclined to feel you're being a tame galoot.

Interesting to see a resistance to ties as being masculine, even though it was the wearing of trousers that was always the most gendered item of clothing (which is now the default for most women, for daytime wear at least).

It seems trousers have been claimed, but ties rejected. I suppose for men the purpose of a tie is to add pattern and colour to what is otherwise likely to be a muted outfit. As women still traditionally tend to wear bolder colours and patterns elsewhere the tie becomes superfluous (and harder to match to the rest of the outfit). Perhaps that is one reason ties are amongst the few items of clothing that remain largely a male adornment.

Sorry, just pondering!

Trousers are warm though bluegrass!
Never had a tie that kept me toasty

Bizarrely though the modern tie developed from the practice of putting something around the neck to keep warm. I guess with central heating it isn't such an issue now!

I don't actually understand what 'feminine' is and how it could be taught.

Is feminine acting like a woman? Like which woman? A stereotypical woman seen in films and magazines? Like the woman next door?

Is feminine dressing like a woman? So we could teach our daughters to select the right clothing, groom themselves, put on make-up, and this would be teaching them to be feminine?

Well exactly Jean. Feminity doesn't exist, it is a construct by society.

I agree with SGM - uniforms are just another partriarchal by-product.

I hate the idea of teaching my daughter to be feminine. In my experience that means spending undue time and money on appearance, simpering, pretending to be weak, speaking softly, never doing anything dirty, ungraceful or sporty, and never challenging a male.

Instead I'm teaching her she's beautiful exactly as she is, to exercise her considerable physical strength, to challenge her brothers (no problems there) and that she can take on the world.

Whether or not she wears a tie makes absolutely no difference to this program!

speaking as a man, at least part of the purpose for wearing a tie is that society says I can't do my top button up without one and it can get bloody cold walking around in an open-necked shirt in winter!

Hmm - as a child with zero interest in clothes I loved school uniform; yes, the cooler girls could play around with skirt length, tie style etc but that was basically optional, unlike the humiliating misery of non-uniform days.

I'd argue that girls are judged much more by their clothes and self-presentation - teenage boys can get away with jeans and black T-shirts without social condemnation, whereas girls are expected (by other girls) to follow fashion. So, enforcing uniform removes an area of potential divisiveness/judgementalism, which surely helps girls in the school environment?

the fact that you have to 'teach' femininity means that it's not an innate thing like breathing or sneezing, but a way we expect female persons to behave.

The question is, does femininity limit or liberate these female persons?

My mum was always trying to get me to 'sit like a lady' and 'talk softly dear' and 'stop wrestling with your brother and play like a lady' and... frankly, everything that involved femininity when I was in primary school was boring and repressive and crap!

Heh. I pick up the fun bits (colours, nice fabrics, makeup sometimes) when I feel like it. But having to be 'feminine' for women is just as limiting as having to be 'masculine' (don't cry, don't tell your friend you love them, don't hug your adult children) is for men. It's all nonsense really.

I wore ties at school and loved them, but that's because they were essentially colour-coded as sort of merit badges, and I was a nerdy type who liked getting merit badges!

oh everyone it seems like i've sitrred up a right hornets nest here, and you have made me think about the questions i was actually asking.

overall i dont think the school is catering for our girls. i stuggle to express this correctly.these are my feelings for what its worth- i feel the school seating plan is based on sex only, not ability, and favoursthe boys. There are so single sex tables which i feel, but didnt express, is wrong.

the tie issue. i really do think that the girls look butch and is geared towards the boys. i hated wearing a tie and when i went to school the boys did and the girls didnt. at very least i feel both sexes should be allowed to choose to wear it

these two issues together.... make me feel that the school has a faouristism for the boys. but i thought that perphaps i was being unreasonable and wanted to gauge others opinions.

thanks for your help

Is it s private school that was formerly all-male? I've been in educational institutions that have made transition from all-male to mixed, and there can certainly be a feeling that girls are just having to squeeze into moulds set during a male era.