Feminists Against Abortion?

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

OK, hoping someone can fill me in here. I was wondering what the arguments against abortion could be, from a feminist perspective? I've always been pro-choice, so I'm a bit confused as to any desire to take away a woman's choice whether to abort an unwanted pregnancy.

As someone who is staunchly pro-choice, the only teeny corner of me that is unhappy with abortion is where it is sytematically and purposefully used to abort female feotuses.

I would have described myself as an anti abortion feminist once. I would have cited men as the originator of the problem with their lack of respect and responsibility for women and children. I would have condemned a patriarchal society and it's failure to support women and their threatening ability to give birth and nurture their young. I would have cited better contraception, support and opportunities as the most important things.

I was in short a naive product of a catholic upbringing with family very involved in pro life campaigning. Thankfully I was not out spoken in views in any general way and even then couldn't see any other option for some pregnant friends.

An antiabortion feminist is to me an oxymoron. The campaigners I met were often male, always religious and had generally led the kind of charmed inward looking life that allowed them to focus on the simplicity of the unborn foetus rather than the messy social, cultural and personal pressures that necessitate abortion rights.

Trillina: I think some feminists (and even non feminists) would subscribe to the poisition you described. I have come across it a lot. I think it could only be described as a anti feminist opinion if the person sought to impose her beliefs on other women. It's quite a standard argument: the women who is pregnant is the person who should get to decide what happens to her body. If she thinks abortion is akin to murder it would be cruel and inhumane and definitely not feminist to make her have an abortion. On the other hand if the women does not have this strength of feeling, it should not be the duty/religious calling of another women or man, feminist or otherwise to tell her she mustn't have an abortion. I can't quite think that a feminist could do that.
In the stuff I am involved in here in Mexico, we tend to frame the argument in terms of morals (this is a very Catholic place). Legalising terminations is about allowing women to make a moral choice about whether or not to continue with her pregnancy. A state which outlaws abortion is adopting the attitude that women can't be trusted to make such moral choices and thus these must be made for them. It belittles women and denies that they are moral beings. And of course, the correct moral choice for one women is not always the same for another.

On the other hand if the women does not have this strength of feeling, it should not be the duty/religious calling of another women or man, feminist or otherwise to tell her she mustn't have an abortion.

I disagree. If I believe that something you are considering doing murder then it is my duty to try to persuade you not to commit murder.

I don't think it is possible to be a feminist and be 100% pro-life anti choice.

I wonder if people who say they are pro-life actually understand that this means forcing women to have babies they don't want? Though I assume they would say a woman shouldn't have sex if she doesn't want a baby.

FWIW I don't think abortion is something to celebrate but I would never judge a woman who had one and I am absolutely pro-choice.

This is a really interesting thread - abortion seems to divide my feminist friends unlike anything else.

Giving an overview of dicussions we have had, it seems that there are two different frameworks for being anti-abortion. The first one is because some people believe that a foetus is a human being from conception, and therefore terminating a pregnancy comes with a whole host of moral issues (whether you are female or a male supporting this choice) which are not solely linked to the woman's rights.

The second one is the whole sanctity of motherhood, selfishness of women, blah blah blah can't ven be arsed going in to it as you ll know what I mean.

I find the first one very easy to understand and respect these views.

The second, I find an example of reducing a woman to a role, and therefore everything to do with feminism.

TBH, I don't know where my own, private views on abortion fall. I am glad that women (and couples) have access to abotions, and have supported more than one friend through the process without a qualm or second thought. I wholeheartedly believed that this was the right decision in each case.

However, I can't quite bring myself to be 100% at ease with saying that I have no personal moral issue wth abortion.

I hope this isn't offensive or hurtful to anyone - not my intention. I suppose I mean that I don't know if I ever could have had an abortion personally, but am very glad that it is an option and believe it should not be divided into 'good' (i.e. 'blameless' - rape, being a teenager) and 'bad' (having had sex, failed contraception, unwanted pregnancy, etc etc) reasons.

Cat.....Now you say you're in Mexico I can pronounce your MN username!!

sorry, as you were.

It's a daft name, but I kind of like being unpronounceable. It makes me feel at home (my RL name here is mangled spectacularly on a regular basis).

Trillian: this is the response I often get too. The response I tend to give is the following. In different cultures moral rules are not always the same; murder is generally condemned but killing is justified in a variety of contexts. It ends up being governments who draw up the rule book on the issue. Most (but not all) people who are opposed to abortion are often only ready to permit it when the mother's life is in danger (because they consider this to finally outweigh the right of life of the foetus). Thus they recognise that in this case, the women is actually more important that a foetus in utero. If they are ready to recognise this, it comes back down to the question of moral choice. I would ask them if they would oblige/avise a women in this position to abort or would they be ready to let her make the decision? If the answer is that they would let the woman decide, the obvious continuation is to ask, why they aren't ready to let her make life and death decisions in other contexts?
In the case of those like the hardliners here, in Nicarauga and the Phillipines and other places, who oppose abortions even in these circumstances the argument is much more difficult: the only thing really to be said imho is to point out the cruelty in prioritising a as yet not born person over those already in existence. The woman's other children for a start; and to point out how much maternal absence through death affects the prospects of her children. It doesn't tend to convince anyone, though, because most people who go for this argument have no experience of being in the position to be about to lose or have lost their mother/partner/realtive/friend in this circumstance. Sadly, equally those who do sustain it, if they were to find themselves in such a position would do all they could to move their loved one to somewhere where abortion is possible.
I'm bitter about this because for me attitudes to abortion are a key feminist issue. The policing of pregnancy -the imprisoning of women for miscarrying or having a still birth- the marginalisation and condemnation for single mothers -the lack of access to contraceptives -the idea that women are responbsable uniquely and totally for all children- is the patriarchy in action. In a world where such attitudes were not present abortion would still be necessary in some cases -but it would be very few. The reason that abortion is quite so necessary at the moment is precisely beacsue women are not permitted to control (and actively prevented from doing so in many cases) their own fertility.

How can you be a feminist and aspire to dictate what other women do with their bodies and their lives?

It's not the same as murder unless you can imagine a murder victim who lives inside another person's body, being utterly dependent on that body to survive.

If you are an anti-choice feminist, would you find it reasonable to have a woman implanted with a foetus against her will? If not, why not? You've already shown that you consider a woman's role as host more important than her own choice.

Other people have probably put that better, but ... grr!

Do anti abortion feminists aspire to dictating to other women though, or is theirs more of a theoretical moral position?

I mean do they see abortion as something that women should have access to at the moment, due to the lack of control they have over their own fertility, but they are against this 'solution' to the problem as they see it? They see the solution as being that women have full control over their fertility and patriarchy stops presenting PIV sex as something men are entitled to.

If that is the case, I'm quite sympathetic to their position even though I very pro choice myself.

I could see that sort of thinking being hijacked by people who do wish to dictate to women and control and punish them however (if they are able to understand it!!).

Add message | Report | Message poster holyShmoley Sat 10-Sep-11 09:11:50
I wonder if we have permitted this whole debate to be framed in the wrong way?
If I frame it thus: over the last 50 years what has been the man/patriarchy response to women insisting that they take responsibility for their own gametes and it's products? It has been to get women to take hormonal contraception, and to sell women liberal abortions. I think that this is a piss poor response and that we should say it is unacceptably bad. This is not an anti-choice position, but states that no abortion through no demand is whats needed (as opposed to no abortion through no availability).
Has liberal abortion increased in any way the extent to which men take equal reponsibility for their sperm/pregnancies/children? No, absolutely not. So instead of taking about the merits of safe liberal abortion, lets start talking about the demerits and how they have given men greater freedom to walk away.

Sorry to post and run but will try to get back later.

looking forward to hearing a bit more holyShmoley

what are the demerits of abortion though? why are hormonal contraception and liberal abortion (what is liberal abortion?) unacceptably bad?

I don't know what 'liberal abortion' is either. I'd welcome more info from HolySchmoley, if that poster has time to elaborate.

I thought holy was promoting barrier methods and saying that men should take more responsibility, and it is hard to imagine having a penis and being so reckless as to unwanted pregnancy that you don't put a condom on before you put it in someone's minge, and perhaps pointing out that women are bearing all the burden in terms of adverse effects of contraception and terminations. But would like to hear more.

i thought being a feminist meant that you strive for all women to have total control over their life

maybe i have got it all wrong and that is what it is about until the debate about termination comes up and then there are some loopholes, how hypocritical. choose not to have a termination yourself, your choice your body but never can it be acceptable for you to decide what is right for other women and then claim to be a feminist, you are not

yes but unless you are a teenage girl wanting a council flat, or an emotionally unhinged singleton desperate to trap a man you can't get yourself pregnant can you?

Contraception can fail! I am the only woman in my circle who's never had an abortion. Not a single one of them was due to reckless behaviour by the woman. And there's rape. And husbands who have affairs when their wife is pregnant.

Unless it's possible to end a pregnancy that's already begun, I don't see how women have any real control over their own destiny.

Why put all the responsibility on women? Because it is women's problem, unless you're talking theoretically. A pregnancy, however, is not theoretical.

does it matter how a women has fallen pregnant, could be that her and her partner were drunk got carried away and took a risk, she forgot to take the pill, partner didn't pull out in time, contraception failure then all the terrible scenarios that for some make it ok for a women to allow herself to make such an appalling decision

the only reason a women should have a termination is because she wants to. for many women it is not about circumstances she is in it is just that she does not want to be pregnant at that point in her life, and that she also might not actually feel any guilt because she knows it is the right thing to do for her

this seems very hard for many to get their head around. I had a termination and feel no guilt, how i fell pregnant and my circumstances are irrelevant my decision does not need to be justified to anyone. my wanting a termination (and it never crossed my mind to carry on with the pregnancy) was totally about me making a choice about my life and having control over my body

we need to stop putting termination into catorgies of bad and good when it is ok and we can be supportive and when we can not, we need as women to be behind other women and give the support some women may need after or for those who feel they have no choice help them see there are options , for the women who are having multiple terminations look at the real reasons why she has so little respect over her body instead of making her feel worse about herself and most of all respect a women?s decision that she makes for herself

she also might not actually feel any guilt because she knows it is the right thing to do for her - this seems very hard for many to get their head around

Yes, because that is the basic reason for 'abortion on demand': freedom to choose, not to "choose" only when all the alternatives are too dire to contemplate.

Post-abortion stress syndrome, or whatever it's called, is made up. Obviously abortions are distressing for many, as are miscarriages. The distress doesn't go on to blight a woman's life for ever, though, as anti-choicers claim. Lifetime consequences are what women risk when their only options are DIY abortions or unwanted children.

As well as all the other arguments, there is a class issue too. There is no country or culture in the world where women do not try to control their fertility. In countries where it is illegal, there are still abortions - some times with fatal consequences. For wealthy women of course, safe abortions are possible - even if they have to travel to another country to obtain one. For poor women, their options are not so great and sometimes result in an unwanted child but in huge huge numbers, result in a dangerous and unhygenic attempt at an abortion.

Every restriction that is put on access to abortion makes women a little less human and a little more of a walking incubator. I happen to think the UK law has it about right - although it still irritates me that it is not available on request.

"if we are to have an equal society then men and women have to be equally responsible for sex and it's outcomes."

I don't think this is either possible or desirable. One of the big reasons abortion as a free choice for women is important as a feminist issue is because pregnancy happens to a woman's body. There's no way for a man to shoulder that physical aspect. It has physical consequences for the woman even if everything goes swimmingly. There is no way to change that at the moment, and I don't think it would be in any way useful to put men through what women go through just to even things up. Massive jumps in medical technology might one day make pregnancy independent of the body - I think a lot of people would find that undesirable - but it wouldn't necessarily mean that women couldn't get pregnant unless they wanted to.

For what it's worth I'm a pro-abortion feminist (I really dislike that so many pro-choice people are keen to say no-one is pro-abortion). I don't see a foetus as a person and I'd rather see hundreds of abortions than one child born who wasn't wanted. I'd prefer a culture that was more accepting of the choice to terminate a pregnancy for social reasons and less gungho about the idea of struggling with a child that wasn't really wanted.

Never-the-less I see that the law has to be pro-choice not pro-abortion. Forcing or coercing women into abortion is heinous. I can see how someone could be an anti-abortion feminist who would like to see more people be prepared to carry a foetus to term in less than ideal circumstances but thinks the law should be pro-choice because forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy is heinous.