Bloody hell! So my friend's 3yo daughter told her GP she wanted to be a doctor ...

[BellaBearisWideAwake]

and this is what happened:

"So, DD has got really interested in bones, muscles, what's in the body etc last few weeks. Yesterday we got lots of great books with pictures out of the library and she decides she wants to be a bone-fixing doctor, sawing up bones and pinning them together. Brilliant. Today she volunteers this to the GP, who tells her most orthopedic surgeons are men and it's much too difficult for women to make it. FFS"

I mean, really??!!! What sort of message is this?!

Anyway, I asked my friend if I could post this here as I am really interested in what other people have to say about it.

I can't imagine at GP would say this/talk like this to a 3 year old! A 3 year old wouldn't even understand that. A 13 year old maybe?! But a 3 year old?!

Anyhow... I think orthopaedic surgery does have a significant male to female ratio... But by the time this 3 year old is 23 years old I can't imagine this will be the case anymore. It's a fact I believe and it's therefore not sexist IMO it was a tactless thing to say but I can't imagine the 3 year old understood it or will significantly be affected by it.

I do know a female consultant orthopaedic surgeon, as it happens. But gender aside, you know what they say about orthopaedic sugeons, don't you? It's the same kind of jokes other musicians make about viola players.

Viz (C&P):
3 orthopaedic surgeons took 55 days to do a jigsaw and were proud of their achievement.
When asked why they were so proud they said because it said 2-3 years on the box.

At an orthopaedic meeting how can you spot the academic orthopaedic surgeon?
He's the one who can just get his knuckles off the floor.

What's the difference between a carpenter and an orthopaedic surgeon?
A carpenter knows more than one antibiotic.

How do you hide a twenty pound note from an orthopaedic surgeon?
Put it in a text book.

How do you spot the orthopaedic surgeon's car in the car park?
It's the Porsche with a comic on the back shelf.

What's the difference between a rhinoceros and an orthopaedic surgeon?
One's thick-skinned, small-brained and charges a lot for no very good reason....the other's a rhinoceros.

What do you call two orthopaedic surgeons looking at a chest X-ray?
A double blind study.

The definition of shifting dullness - an orthopaedic ward round.

Why do anaesthetists take an instant dislike to orthopaedic surgeons?
Because it saves time

I must be a figment of my imagination then.

Most orthopods are currently male, but most medical graduates are female, so that state of affairs can't be sustainable for much longer. So at the moment the senior levels are mainly male, but there are an increasing number of us rising through the ranks. (My current department has no female consultant, but 2 of us at registrar level; the previous department 1 female consultant & 2 registrars, and the one before that 1 and 1) It's going to take time, but she's 3 ffs - by the time she gets there the problem will be for her brother!

Of course at 3 she may decide to be a dragonslayer by next week, but if you want more girly-ortho info let me know!

AgonyBeetle You're just jealous!

Genuinely, orthopaedics is a very manual speciality, akin to carpentry.

To successfully correct many orthopaedic issues in surgery, the surgeon has to be able to lift and support limbs which are paralysed, relocate joints in sockets, which requires HUGE amounts of consistent pressure, the list goes on.

I don't think it harms an intelligent 3 year old to know that most orthopaedic surgeons are men. I really don't. It's the parent's job to then reinforce to the child that what this means, is that they would have to work especially hard if that's what they want to do.

I gave the example on another thread, but my DD1 (5.9) has SN which affect her globally. To put her needs in context, she goes to Special School, but is one of the more able children there.

She has consistently and reliably told me for over a year that she wants to be a 'farmer' when she grows up. Now, we don't know why yet, but she has a wobbly gait, weak hands, and a slightly week grip. We don't know what her future holds, but she is very unlikely to be strong enough to be a farmer.

For me, responsible parenting isn't to gloss over it all and say 'of course you can dear..', but rather to help her to moderate her expectations to a practical but aspiring level. So, I say 'well, you'd have to work very hard at getting as strong as you can, DD1. To be honest, I think your hands might not get strong enough for the big animals, but you could be a small animal farmer, and maybe just feed the big animals?'

A GP treating the 3 year old with respect, recognising her intelligence, and giving her an honest appraisal, is no bad thing in my view.

Hello. Thanks BellaBearisWideAwake for posting. It was me and my girl who had this encounter. To answer a few questions

• it was a woman GP, not that I think that means she should be more or less blamed for saying what she did
• she might have thought DD was four, (she's 3.4) she's quite tall, but probably not any older. I did use the word orthopedic surgeon first, as I had with DD beforehand; she thinks long words are quite funny.

My view is that the woman was entirely factually accurate, in that the hoooj majority of surgeons are men and it's harder for women. But that it is bizarre to think that it's fair to be telling a 3-year-old that she should tailor her choices/behaviour/expectations according to her gender.

I was dismayed as I have worked quite hard (as has DH) to avoid this - to the point where if anyone suggested that "pink is for a girl, blue for a boy" I have pointed out my favourite colour is blue, her uncle wears a lot of pink shirts (I know, poor taste, but beneficial to my argument). So I think this is the first time anyone has ever suggested to her that girls do one thing, boys another.

I don't care if she becomes an orthopedic surgeon or a hairdresser (although from the point of view of keeping us in our old age, I would rather it were the former). But it should be a choice based on her preference, not stereotypes. And I hope by the time that this all becomes relevant for her generation, we will have moved on in the way the workplace is organised.

I wish I had challenged the GP, but all I really did was say to DD a few times (and it was a few times as the GP kept coming back to the theme) that if she wanted to be a bone fixer she could and there were women who did it. The GP then did say, you could be a nice lady doctor, like the doctor who is going to help your mummy (she was referring me to a gynaecologist).

Anyway, thanks for your annoyance. Should I mention it next time we go (we are going back next week). The GP (aside from weird determination to crush little girls' dreams) is awfully nice!

Lougle I'm 5'3 and a size 10-12. My female colleague is taller but skinnier. I struggle with more than 3 full shopping bags from town to the flat. We BOTH hold our own in the department.

We may neither of us be Pink Princesses/WAGs in waiting but we're not the HT from Matilda or eastern-block shot-putters either.

If the boys start using excessive force it's usually a sign that technique is lacking or that something is not how it seems. The physicality of the job really isn't a problem (especially these days with power drills etc )

The politics of working in the Nash though...but that's not really a feminist issue or necessary for a 3yo!

That GP is not treating ME with respect in his (ok an assumption, maybe her) attitude - whoever he's speaking to at the time. Is that mother going to respect me next week if she has to see me in A&E? Would the child trust me to put her in plaster if needed, especially if tired scared and in pain? Completely unprofessional IMO.

Oh, and yes, it did affect her notion to be a surgeon a bit. But then again, as she's three, she is easily swayed off course.

But over lunch, when we got home, I brought up the topic gently and she said she would maybe help people who had broken their bones in another way, by doing their gardening.

I mentioned that a female friend of mine was a surgeon and after lunch we played at sawing up bones, so I think back on track. Of course, it'll be back to the other options of train driver/waitress/bin collector next week.

As an aside, the tool bench that my godson has (he's 3.5) has some very orthopaedic looking tools on it - that, some teddy sized bandages and lolly sticks for splints could make a reasonable play-ward! Otherwise get that girl going with some meccano!

"I don't think it harms an intelligent 3 year old to know that most orthopaedic surgeons are men. I really don't. It's the parent's job to then reinforce to the child that what this means, is that they would have to work especially hard if that's what they want to do."

I don't think that is a reasonable description of what it means, though. It seems like a very passive, accepting interpretation of what it means, and not one I would personally want to pass on to a young child.

As for it being responsible parenting, no, it's not responsible parenting to get a preschooler to moderate her expectations in response to the limitations society currently places on women! I can see how it would be responsible/sensible to do this in response to the limitations of her own physical ability, as you are doing with your daughter; but IMO, that is not the same thing at all.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with telling a child they would have to work very hard to do a particular job. I just object to the notion of telling them at such a young age that they would have to work extra hard because they are female. Fine if you are dealing with a child who is old enough to take on board a follow-up discussion of the reasons why this is, and the way prejudice against women limits opportunities, but I really don't think I would expect a 3 year old to process this.

IMo at that age it's really about driving home the message that life is full of possibility, not pointing out all the ways in which they should beware of unrealistic expectations, or moderate their dreams to take sexism into account.

you could be a nice lady doctor ???!!!

Ooh, nice work, Martini

My mum says that orthopaedic surgeons were always the rubgy playing ones at medical school - not necessarily the brightest but the discipline is all a bit black and decker so it's usually big strong men who do it.

However she did say she had worked with one female orthopaedic surgeon who was small and slight and very good.

That aside, of course she shouldn't have said that to a 3yo.

Arrrrrrrrgh not saying that rugby players are thick I didn't mean that at all. Oh dear.

Reminds me of Eddie Izzard's visits with the careers advisor...... 'you're British so scale it down a bit"

What a prat of a GP! The DD is 3 years old, so it's a bit early to be sure she won't grow up to be a strapping, muscly six-footer FFS.
What I would do would be use it as a starting point to explain to DD that there are some people who have this very silly idea that there are some things girls can't do, but that these people are wrong and she can do whatever she wants with her life.

there are some things girls can't do, like join certain army regiments. she needs the truth not sugar coated naivety

At 3 years old she doesn't need the truth because the world changes and the truth changes.

When I was 3, women didn't have the right to be paid the same money for doing the same job as a man.

By the time I was 18, that legal right was enshrined in law.

How would it have helped me at 3 years old, to know that I didn't have that right?

Have you got daughters, Edd?

Blimey, edd, even my insanely negative parents in the 1950s told me I could be a helicopter pilot, deep-sea diver, firefighter (had to be termed "lady fireman" ), gold miner, lumberjack, actress, teacher or architect. You don't smash childhood ambitions, you just ... don't!

I still want to try that log-walking thing lumberjacks do

Edd, at the moment DS wants to be either a mermaid, Flynn Ryder or a singer when he grows up. When should I start trampling on his dreams? (He's 3.5)

To me this isnt even just about sexisim- there is such a British mentaltiy towards people of any gender to squash any big dream! Thats why I like the USA so much there is a much bigger feeling of the "world is your stage"

Who cares if no other female or male has done x,y or z before? Why cant you be the first?

Yes be realistic by saying "well it it wont be easy and there will be many hurdles but I believe in you" to your children!

Edd lives in a mancave where nothing ever changes.

My granny was born in a world where women didn't have the vote and Ireland was officially known as The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. She joined the IRA and did something about that.

I completely agree Cocoflower. The discouraging of putting your neck out is a very British thing.