Feminist view of breastfeeding

[NotQuiteSoDesperate]

Sorry it this has been done to death already, but I'm really interested in what the feminist view is of breastfeeding. Now, it's nearly 18 years since I last bf my DS2, but I find many of the threads about bf on MN really absorbing. I thought that we had it quite hard all those years ago, but I'm astonished to read that things seem even worse these days.

All of these Mils and DMs who don't support their daughters, DH/DPs who don't support their wives/partners. Women on MN who find bf disgusting etc., and don't support other women feeding in public or feeding older toddlers.

I just wonder how we have managed to get to a place where our society makes it so hard for women to do something that should be a normal, natural skill. But it doesn't seem to be! Is it simply capitalism in the form of the FF companies? Is it the undermining of a womanly art/skill? For what reason? If it were something men could do, would it be supported/praised/in the Olympics?

I'm simply puzzled.

I dislike the moralisation of breastfeeding. I'm a big girl, I can decide for myself, thanks.

Why is everything you do as a mother subject to public judgement?

I'm an adult woman and able to make the right choice for me and my family. Baby is nourished.

Agree LLL can be a bit fanatical. I tend to take some parts with a pinch of salt and am not afraid to speak my mind on certain issues, and have met some great friends there who I tend to meet up with outside the group anyway - but I wouldn't recommend them to all new mums and for that reason I feel they are not as inclusive as they could be, which I think is unhelpful in terms of the breastfeeding "image" - which shouldn't even be something you should have to think about! But sadly because it has got so political I think that perhaps you do, especially if you are running a group specifically aimed at breastfeeding women.

I know that failure to thrive does happen, though switching to formula is not the only option in this instance - there are ways of getting supply up, encouraging baby to feed in other ways, expressing, mixed feeding for a while (and when this is advised it is only very rarely in conjunction with advice about how to reduce the effect of top ups on supply) and looking for underlying issues such as tongue tie as well. Of course formula is a valid option, and it should be suggested alongside other things, and as I said earlier it would be a good thing if people could avoid much future hurt and disappointment by being offered an informed choice earlier, but so often it's stated to be the only option even when it's not. Again it just comes down to the same point, people should listen to what women actually want rather than presuming they know what is best. I suppose it's linked to lack of money in the area as well, if HCPs don't know there are other options or don't have the time to sit with women and go through them or support them through them, then that is probably the main reason formula is suggested as a first resort.

To return to something that was said several times on the first page of this thread, and which one often does hear in discussions of bf: breasts are not primarily sexual (and it is patriarchy that has made them primarily sexual so they belong to men not babies).

But I do feel very sexual about my breasts, and having my breasts touched is central to sexual pleasure for me. That's not because I am in thrall to men but because that's the way my sexuality works. I did bf, though not for long, and I simply couldn't have sex while I was bf at all. It just felt all wrong, and I didn't like my body not feeling the way it normally does. It was a huge relief to finish bf (even though there were good things about it).

There is also a feminist issue about women's bodies being subject to the demands of maternity and not just to patriarchy. Why would it be so bad to admit that we might primarily value our breasts for the sexual pleasure they bring us?

But that's coming from you personally, niminy - it's not the same as someone else telling you that your breasts are sexual so you shouldn't use them to feed a baby. If you feel that your breasts are primarily sexual to you and you don't want to use them for breastfeeding, then that's fair enough and nobody should question that. (I'm aware that people do though.)

Do people really feel that breastfeeding makes the father into a secondary parent? I haven't felt this to be the case at all, but I wonder if that is because my DP's work is very flexible and so he spent a lot of time with ds, maybe more than most fathers.

Certainly by this point (ds is 13 months) the fact that he is breastfed has no impact on the quality of his relationship with his father.

Yep I agree, Bertie. But I was using myself as an example, because the 'breasts aren't sexual' thing does get said a lot. There's a kind of earth-mother-feminism that I particularly associate with LaLecheLeague which can be quite hard to argue against, because it does involve you saying things like 'having my breasts touched is central to sexual experience' and, you know, saying that is for a lot of women quite difficult. Particularly when you're all supposed to be enjoying a good fairtrade, ethical and good-mothering breastfeed

I have mixed feelings on this, I truly believe BF is the best you can do for your baby and women should be properly supported, both by HCP and the wider community to BF for as long as possible. I also hate the way women are embarrassed about feeding in public, not because of them, because of horrible attitudes towards it. I fed both dd and ds everywhere and anywhere, it was their food and they were fed on demand because they were babies and that was what was needed.

HOWEVER, I do see BF as a form of slavery. dd fed every hour and refused bottles, she had reflux and colic, she fed and fed and screamed and screamed and I was on call 24/7 which i couldn't stand, I just couldn't cope with it. DH changed nappies and did housework but feeding, cuddling and settling dd it was all down to me because she fed so much. DS was a bit better but it was still relentless, exhausting and restrictive. I did both for 6 months, I hated it but neither would take bottles. It was at a massive cost to my relationship with dh and my emotional and physical health, it's also affected my attachment to dd to this day as as soon as she would finally take bottles I handed her over to DH and completely detached myself from her as I was traumatised by BF.

I'm afraid I wholeheartedly believe the newborn period is COMPLETELY different for the Mother whether they BF or not. It's a completely different experience, I have 2 friends with 4 month olds one who bf and one who ff. their lives are so different and for the one who ff a LOT less stressful.

Just from a purely personal point of view, breastfeeding and motherhood has unleashed an engagement with ideas about women, roles and feminism that had been slumbering inside me for years.

A few days after I came home with my son I remember looking in the mirror, big postnatal tummy and all, and thinking 'bloody hell, I'm amazing. I grew him inside my body and now I'm feeding him with my own milk. I'm a mother. I'm the mother.' I felt more like a woman than I have ever done before. I can produce this beautiful, sweet food and it is real, free and all under my own control.

I feel incredibly positive about my breasts, whereas before I had always felt they were somehow inferior - only a 32C, not really that desirable according to the magazines and media, no man had ever really given them a second glance. Yet now my son was worshipping them, his tiny hand cupping my milk-full breast. From that moment onwards I didn't give a stuff what any man thinks of my breasts - they are nothing to do with them, they are for my baby (future babies?) and they are wonderful.

I began reading about breastfeeding, thinking about 'lactivist' issues, looked into donating milk, read the Politics of Breastfeeding and eventually became a peer supporter. I now volunteer on a postnatal ward and see breastfeeding support as the way that I am going to contribute to the wellbeing of women.

here here here last post, couldnt agree more, i bf all my 4 dcs and noone turned a hair, and if they did or had done then its simply a case of piss off, my baby my rules, end of.

i dont care who bf or who ff, its an individual decision and should be so and its no one elses business except the mums.

why dont people just mind thier own bloody business on this topic.also on pain relief during labour and home birth v hospital birth, noses out.

I agree, the politics of breastfeeding is fascinating and difficult.

I was a long-term breast feeder (7 years in total between two DSs). It worked for us and in the end did not kill off my career (... DH is now SAHD). But I think that the more general pattern is that a serious spell of breastfeeding for two or three children for many women results in them becoming embedded as the primary parent and their partner as the primary earner, and they become so specialised in domestic/public roles that it becomes very hard to get back to equality.

I don't think workplace crèches are the answer - most people work for small companies, breast feeding doesn't fit well with schedules, meetings and travel for work etc.. My experience of BF was nothing like nipping out in your break to nurse!

I don't know what the answer is.

I don't think women should be judged or pressurised on this, but even without pressure, I guess there are always going to be dilemmas and strong opinions where you can buy something in a tin for a tenner, which (assuming clean water supplies etc..) is ' almost as good' or you can give your child what is nutritionally 'best', but at significant personal cost.

I'm reading the Politics of bf, & have actually been thinking about all this quite a lot, the devaluation of care giving, is central. Personally in comparison to ff, I have found bf liberating. I am already an old harridan & am unlikely to be swayed by the pro ff arguments of my nearest & dearest - because that is not what I want to do.
However it was a huge struggle to get started, & for all the pro bf stance of the hospital it is all talk & no support - or poor, unhelpful, or inaccurate advice. This is the feminist issue how we as women have become so inept at caring for our newborns, and how in thrall to even less able hpcs.
If care giving was valued we would be better equiped.

I think we have to see that feminism is not one thing, and nor is bf.

It clearly does have incredible positives for some women. For some women the whole revaluation of care giving (the politics of bf line) is a huge feminist issue.

But we also need to see that giving voice to ambivalence and dislike of bf is also feminist. One of the things that started off second-wave feminism was women speaking about their experiences, and finding that the gap between what their lives were supposed to be like and what they were like was huge, and that that was common to lots of women. The problem with no name was named, and became feminism.

Somehow, as feminists, we need to hold together that there can be sharply conflicting views and experiences of bf and not to use these as a stick to beat each other, or an opportunity for one-up-womanship. We need to listen to others and to be honest ourselves. That's why I wrote that I ddn't like bf and was glad to give up because to me my breasts are primarily sexual.

Niminy - very interesting you say that about sexuality and breastfeeding. I hated sex the entire time I bf. I had no sex drive, no libido, was exhausted and sex was painful unless we used a lot of lube In 7 months we maybe had sex 7 times. I feel like a different woman now I'm not bf. I feel like me again.

For me BF really was a mix of positives and negatives. I did love it but I was a bit of a slave to it as well as it meant I did all the night waking, the going to sleep (as we fed to sleep which I also hated but couldn't fix), no time completely to myself, no chance to go out on my own... I'm really proud I got to 6-7 months but I kind of wish I had just stopped at 4 months and not felt any guilt at doing so.

Have just read The Politics of Breastfeeding in two days (thanks to downloading it as an ebook from iBooks). Now feel a mixture of anger, sadness, frustration and a bit of guilt. A stunning book!

Wow. That's quick. Although it's quite a gripping read.

Would you like to unpack your emotions?

I did find it totally gripping, I must say.

• I feel anger that we (society/people in general) have allowed commercial interests to normalise formula feeding and make many women feel uncomfortable or frightened to breastfeed.

• I feel angry that millions of children have died because their mothers were encouraged to formula feed their babies.

• I feel angry that companies have made money on the backs of dead babies and grieving families.

• I feel angry that governments are in thrall to capitalism and don't protect their own populations.

• I feel angry that women's skills and contribution to the world are denigrated or ignored.

• I feel angry that medical professionals and scientists have colluded with big business to convince women against breastfeeding with the aim of making their name/money. (Had a bit talk with DS2 last night who wants to become a research scientist about science ethics!!!).

• I feel frustrated that this book has been updated and edited because the situation is no better than when it was first published.

• I feel sad that I knew so little about breastfeeding that I only fed my DSs for a year each. I loved bf them and allowed my MiL to influence me too much - she stated strongly that DCs should only be fed to 9 months (and 4-hourly etc). I was able to "feed on demand" as it was known then, but only did it for a year against a lot of pressure! I am sure that DS1 in particular would have carried on for longer.

• I feel sad that my own DM was unable to bf me as she had no support and that she fed my younger brother Carnation Condensed Milk!!!

• I feel guilt after reading some of the pieces on child rearing. I had no knowledge of babies when we had our DSs and was totally isolated from day-to-day family support. I know I left DS1 to cry a lot as he was a very nervy and frightened baby and I couldn't cope very well. I remember losing my temper with him when he was very tiny and shouting at him. It is silly, I suppose to still feel guilty about this (he is 21 now!!!), but he has ASD and I (and MiL) have always been convinced that it is my fault somehow :(

There is a lot more going on in my head, but I had better stop!

It does make one angry when one realises just how much we have been (and continue to to be) manipulated by commercial interests

I understand your feelings of guilt but really, you do not need to feel guilty as you did the best you knew to do and if your DC are older the amount of information regarding these things was a lot less and certainly not widely disseminated. It is useful to be able to talk about your feelings though and debrief in a way.

I boycott Nèstle, which I know is largely pointless but it does give me an opportunity to discuss the politics with others including older mums, Grandparents and men.

In know it's silly to feel guilty after all these years. But just occasionally, I still think about it all. I suppose when you have a child with SN, you are bound to from time to time.

LRD, no we didnt have to as no one ever said anything but I thought it was a good response.

"I feel sad that I knew so little about breastfeeding that I only fed my DSs for a year each"

I fed all three of mine for a year each and I feel very proud. It was a happy time. Why do you feel guilt for stopping? What on earth is there to feel bad about?

"I left DS1 to cry a lot as he was a very nervy and frightened baby and I couldn't cope very well. I remember losing my temper with him when he was very tiny and shouting at him. It is silly, I suppose to still feel guilty about this (he is 21 now!!!), but he has ASD and I (and MiL) have always been convinced that it is my fault somehow."

Again, every mother has done similar. You are a person, these things happen. If you look at attachment theory, much of the the research was conducted on orphans who had experienced extreme neglect. There are other ways of looking at this, not just what you have read in the book.

I haven't read the book but it is one way of looking at breastfeeding and I could provide you with feminist research which will tell you that breastfeeding has become moralised and in the end could be construed as just another way to control women. Many friends used formula because they wanted to and I don't see why it should be judged, it is not a moral decision.

Going against the grain here, I actually find elements of the pro-BF camp to come off as anti-feminist (even if they are not intended in that way).

I have no problem saying formula companies are evil but I really hate the emphasis on banning formula ads, as if women are too thick to make important health and ethical decisions for themselves. In the UK you will see much more damage caused by alcohol than formula, is there such a push to ban alcohol ads?

And as minx so eloquently explained, the end result of BF is that it is the mother who bears a disproportionate responsibility in childcare. It is a sacrifice that many women are willing to make but I personally think it is a bit anti-feminist to act as if this is the natural choice that women must make and that it is unethical to use formula so as to share childrearing more equally.

It is interesting to read this thread because it sounds as if people think that promoting things that women do 'naturally' is a very feminist thing. But I think there is a bit of danger in that, because women's 'natural' traits and capabilities have traditionally been used to keep her in her place.

I appreciate I am in the minority here. Just my two pence

dreaming I agree

Discourse on what is 'natural' is pretty loaded from a feminist point of view.