women expected to put themselves down?

[HeifferunderConstruction]

I think this is sort of a feminist point not sure, its kinda trivial compared to other stuff.

Do you think women are expected to paly down good points e.g. looks.intellect,personality,capability??

as opposed to men?

It came from a moment the other day and others an older relative of mine was talking about how much attention she got as a yw and how she wasn't surprised as a very attractive women, the little voice in my head was like 'How arrogant'!!! then I thought I wouldnt think that of a man, I find it interesting I put myself down becasue I genrally do think that way.

Do women ever put themselves down to fit in? not appear arrogant ? when they actually think good things about themselves ?? Have you ever done that??

It's very interesting isn't it.

I don't mind being assertive (did a politics degree and am one of those people who finds arguing fun!).

But I find myself being very self deprecating at times - especially around other women. I think it's because a lot of the things I'm good at tend to be thought as more male and I don't want to be thought as odd.
For example say we were all chatting about our favourite subjects at school and everyone was complaining about how they hated maths I'd be a bit embarrassed to admit I always found maths and science really easy but hated English Lit. - Which is stupid really, how are we meant to combat gender stereotypes if I can't even say that I find maths easy and hated all the 'girly' subjects

Skrumle- it wasnt really a passing comment quite a long waffle but not really the point, If someone said they were super brainy they would probably be seen as quite arrogant I do think the looks is viewed more arrogantly I think becasue of the link with vanity= arrogant personality.

Isn't there an element of 'deserving' to this, though? An aesthetically beautiful person was just lucky to have inherited the right genes, developed undisturbed in utero, be born smoothly and to have escaped disfiguring injuries or illnesses. It's not an achievement, so a bit wrong to boast about it much. Someone who's bust a gut to get their PhD, decorate their house, write the deal-sealing presentation, etc, has the right to ask for praise - they deserve it, iyswim.

Thats an intersting way to see it , I suppose being beautiful is something someone earns or warrants respect and I think audience aswell, I would hope no-one would sit there and talk about how hot they are infront of a disfigured person e.g.

i was very shy and quiet for years when i started work, i then got a really good job and it gave me so much confidence.

the next job i had, i hard my (male) manager refer to me a little miss know it all and in that moment I lost all my confidence. fecker.

have no idea how i'm meant to behave in the workplace now. i tend to just keep quiet again. it's easier in the long run

I dont think there is anything wrong with being proud of being pretty or having a good body. Intelligence to a certain extent is what your born with same as talent such as singing etc. It doesnt matter how much you study if you arent good at maths you are never going to be a PHD maths professor or anything. No matter how hard they try

I dont think there is anything wrong with being proud of being pretty as long as you dont disregard anyone who might look different

proud of being pretty? proud of what, exactly? being 'lucky'? i'd rather have pride in achievements, for sure. good body could be slightly differnt (although i'd bicker over the 'good' ) i suppose that working hard to maintain a fit, strong and healthy body would be a source of pride. (as long as you don't get tied up in the strength/ masculinity debate).

why would being pretty be a source of pride? pretty is such a hideous word - with everything that is wrong about what little girls are 'supposed' to be like tied up within it in pick satin beribboned bunches.

otoh, this thread is causing me great pain as i'm trying to rewrite my cv

pick? pink, obv.

I am just saying if the person in the OP had said to me she was pretty when younger and proud of what she looked like. I would say fair play to her and definitely wouldnt think she was arrogant. I think its nice someone being happy with themselves like that and dont think they should pretend to not like themselves.

I know that isnt a common opinion but I would feel happy for that person same as I would if they had done well in something academic or otherwise.

Well, it's reasonable to be proud of any achievement, and that includes things like having worked hard physically to become strong and athletic; but "proud of being pretty" sounds a bit unreasonable.

Possibly it's just semantics, but the difference is significant. Fair enough to acknowledge and enjoy the fact that you are attractive, why not? Be happy with the way you look, that is healthy.

But that is not the same as being "proud" of it in the sense of congratulating yourself on it; basically valuing yourself on the basis of looks.

Obviously no one could say that out loud as a lot of women have to pretend they hate themselves and what they look like in public. I never get why but have seen it a lot

Oh, cross-post.

With regard to the OP: I think it's a really interesting point.

I find myself downplaying my own achievements when I am with other women who I don't know and don't feel much in common with, but hope to get along with for whatever reason (e.g. they are mothers of DS's friends from preschool). I hate that I do it, but I do. Was doing it just yesterday.

I don't do it around men, at all, only because I have worked hard to stop myself doing it over the past decade or so. I felt on principle that apologizing for myself (which I used to do far too much) had no place in any interaction with men.

Not sure why I sort of fall back into it with some women now, though. I am glad you posted this, OP; I think it will prompt me to catch myself and hopefully not do it as much.

a lot of women have to pretend they hate themselves and what they look like in public
That's the thing, though, isn't it? They don't have to! You get these insane group conversations with women competitively moaning about themselves. Why??? WTF?!

Last time this happened, I was with two classically beautiful women - symmetrical features, correct proportions, even skin tone - who started off with a few small moans about their looks. I didn't respond, just went "Mnhm." So they escalated to the "You're beautiful, though, Garlic, don't you worry about ageing?" No, I said. Then added: "I'm not beautiful, I'm pretty. You two both have mathematically beautiful faces, you will age very well."

Heh. First time I've done that so bluntly. Conversation moved on to something slightly more interesting

haha, garlic, that's great

No I dont mean people bringing it up I mean someone saying blah blah you look pretty today and then answer no I dont I look like a fat dog, have you seen my whatever, I hate myself etc. You just think no you dont you idiot I wouldnt s ay it if I didnt mean it.

So I think fair play to the women in the OP and wouldnt think she was arrogant. I would much rather have had that person say that than put herself down. If that was my friend I would be happy for her

I think it's a British thing first. It's that balance between confidence and arrogance - we are self-deprecating as a nation. If you are good then you have to be quietly good but also it's a class issue because we are still divided by class - TOWIE v Made in Chelsea and then it probably is a gender issue once you have overcome the first two.

Britain is doomed to become Theme Park for Chinese tourists skulks off.....

I think whatever you are good at then you should be able to say you are proud of it. There are many things I am not good at but if I am good at something I wouldnt hesitate to bring it up if asked, put it in my cv or bring up if I needed to.

I would also say I wouldnt mind if anyone said to me that they were good at whatever or proud of something. That would include looks, academic achievement, job role or something in the community. As long as the person doesnt go on about it for hours then if asked they s hould never feel embarassed to bring it up. I know through a friend the woman that was made Miss Thailand a few years ago and told her she should be proud of it the same as I would tell someone else well done for whatever achievement. I think if you dont think soeone should be proud of something it probably says more about you then them for mentioning it if talking about themselves. Dont put yourself down

There is a lot of competitive "aren't I fat/ isn't my skin awful/ my breasts are too big/ too small/ my arse is too big/ wobbly/ my hair is too frizzy/ straight/ unmanageable/ no mine is bigger/ smaller/ fatter than your's" conversations between women aren't there?

And also, to a lesser extent in my circle at least, "I'm too thick/ disorganised/ forgetful to grasp/ achieve that.

If men had conversations like that in the office, there'd be a mass emergency counselling session.

Slightly related - I was just about to post a topic like that, but it goes here as well.

Have you noticed that if a man and a woman have exactly the same infomration, a man will usually state his opinion as it's 100% true. And women will say "maybe..", "I think..", "we might consider.."

I know I do it as well and have really been paying attention to avoid it. Heck, this is my professional opinion, there is no need to add that "I think it maybe would be better, from my point of view, if...".

And it really helps in my male-dominated industry. As everybody else is making clear statements and would only come up with "maybe.." if they really-really wasn't sure about it. However, as a woman, you will still get some "how arrogant!" looks, like Heiffer described in the OP. Because clearly, we should not have opinions and if we do, we should apologize and tell everybody first, that we're not really sure and it's a stupid idea anyway...

Have you also noticed that?

Did anyone see that Ryvita ad? A group of women are sitting round discussing the parts of their body they hate. One says she is happy with the way she is and wouldn't change anything. There is a shocked silence and one of her friends then says, half jokingly but not really, "not even your bum?" And they all titter away merrily.

I agree about competitive body-hating.

About workplace stuff though, I don't think assertiveness training is the point. In my experience, men and women do not get the same reactions based on the same actions. What people recognize as 'assertive' behaviour depends on the gender of the person doing it - and IMO men are made to jump through far fewer hoops to achieve a good 'assertive' manner. Just as Heidi says.

I think part of the issue is that society still expects women to be better communicators than men, and more empathetic. So a man who says 'here's my view, and I'm right, and Joe's wrong' is accepted. But a woman is expected to defer to the emotional needs of people around her and to communicate that deference so everyone feels nice.

Maybe this is one of the many areas where I could do with a bit of education, LRD ...

If, in that meeting, you go "In view of what you said, Ben, and taking Joe's point on board, my view works because ..."

It's only a more empathetic way of saying the same thing. Or am I wrong?
I thought they were sending men on courses to learn how to do that. Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

No, I don't think you've got the wrong end of the stick, I think it's just to do with different experiences. I'm in quite an old-fashioned, sexist context, so it is probably very different from a workplace where men are being sent on courses to become more empathetic. IME, women seem to get the thin end of the wedge, because it's very hard to find an appropriately assertive-but-not-aggressive way to express things. I'm glad that's not the case everywhere though.

The whole point is that women and men shouldn't have to dress up the same content differently in order to get the same response - if they do, that's a bit poor. If, as is my experience, there are substantially fewer ways for women to dress up the same content and get any sort of positive response at all, that is where you start worrying.

garlic, in ideal world it indeed would go like that:
Heidi: In view of what you said, Ben, my view works because ..
Ben: Hmm indeed good point Heidi, so you would suggest that...?

in real life it goes like that
Heidi: In view of what you said, Ben, my view works because ..
Ben talking loudly over Heidi: ...and if I elaborate my point then I blah blah blah
heidi: um..sorry..excuse me..still talking..hello? :o

At least this is what used to happen to me. Especially if I did the "I think that possibly maybe.." introduction as well. Now, when I behave like men, people say I'm too bossy. Just because I have an opinion and am not afraid to use it.

I have an opinion and am not afraid to use it

Hard for me to say, I admit. I worked in advertising-type environments, where communication was THE key skill and my overbearing boss was, at least, recognised as a bully with a screw loose.

I've been looking back over various smaller encounters with twatty workmen, etc, and realise that in fact I do simply ignore what they've said and treat them like hearing-impaired children. So I guess that's what you're saying!

I don't give a shit what those workmen think of me, though, it's more difficult if you've got to spend all day, every day, with the sexist bastards.

Im surprised this thread did so well lol