Catherine Hakim - Honey Money: The Power of Erotic Capital

[Bonsoir]

Reviews here

HerebeBollox @ 22.20 - Atticus Finch - doing the right thing. The liberal literati have always loved this scion of anti-racism; it is rarely pointed out that the noble Finch relies entirely on the 'of course, she lied about being raped because....' (fill in gap as required). In this case 'because she's a puppet of racism', but could easily be 'because Dominique Strauss Kahn is wealthy and the USA hates him', or 'because Assange exposes the US state repression'.
This Hakim person is regularly wheeled out to point out the errors of feminism. What we often call 'a useful idiot'.

Women are as different from each other as they are from men, that is the point I am making

There are biological sex differences, obviously - although babies born of indeterminate sex are more common than you might think - but the notion of 'male' and 'female' characteristics could be mapped on to a scale and when measured, some men may well be on the 'female' end of the spectrum and some women more on the 'male' end.

That is what I mean when I say there are more differences between individuals than between genders. Add into that hormones, genes, etc etc and you see that describing 'male behaviour' as somehow determined by their biology - hunter gatherer tough guy - is a very blunt way of describing something incredibly complex.

So saying men want more sex than women and are slaves to their erotic capital etc etc is , in my opinion, nonsense

"I'd add that many feminists seem to suggest there is a category difference between men and their behaviour and women and theirs - which seems to also argue against this."

No - feminists argue that behaviour of men and women are gender constructions - their behaviours are a product of the society in which they germinate - right from when baby girl is dressed in pink and boys is dressed in blue. In fact they are so strong they cause changes in brain structure - a woman's brain will become different to a man's through her life as parts of it are exercised in certain ways which are different to that of a man.

Excellent - that's a bit clearer - and thanks for that!

Is this like me ensuring my DD climbed trees, cliffs and open sea swam - her bedroom was blue by choice! - and worked with tools with Dad - and DS cooked, washed up and cleaned and sewed name labels on to ensure they didn't learn there were male and female roles?

While they are both risk takers and physically competitive, I think that my son probably shows his testosterone in his choice of physical contact sport. DD is a better climber and has more expedition endurance.

What's the proposal to address the gender construction issue?

I ♥ Norman Tebbit! Now there's a phrase I never thought I'd write

I once got torn to shreds on here for saying what you posted at 14:09, Norman. But you said it much better. Thanks!!

damn, that was supposed to be a [heart]

It looks like an unspeakable threat

aliceliddell sorry about being a little pedantic here, but TKaM is one of my favourite books. Atticus never suggests that she lied about being raped. He believes that to be true. It's more that she is so terrified of her rapist (her father, it is implied that his abuse of her is ongoing) that she lies about the perpetrator for fear of the consequences should she tell that truth.

My first time on the feminist threads
My tuppence -worth:
It's a load of bollocks. Sex sells (sad but true) so someone with an eye for a snappy phrase put a marketable concept together and waited for the tabloids to jump on it.
I haven't read the book, but can't be arsed - that would be x amount of time I would never get back.
It's basically saying "learn to spot the shallow dickheads and dirty old goats who make the decisions, and bat your eyelashes at them. You'll be climbing the carreer ladder in no time"
This will always be a preferable modus operandi for some. The rest of us prefer not to cheapen ourselves.

Oh, but wait, wait, cries Ms Hakim, this is an intelligent woman we're talking about, she has the skills and the capablility to get where she wants too.
So, erm, why not make that the focus?

Beautifully put NormanTebbit re gender constructs. Do you have a reference for the "changes in brain structure" research? I am fascinated about this sort of thing. I am still banging on about how the first two years of a child's life are when all the neurons start firing and making connections.

mumwithdice - fair enough, I was giving my general memory of it. I don't know the book in detail. Just think it's an eg of gender/race, gender/class, gender/whatever - it's always gender that turns out tko be less important. If it's not less important it ends up as description, not analysis.

Welcome to Feminism topic MadameOvary

Have you read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine? If not I think you would enjoy it and it gives plenty of detailed refs on the brain stuff.

aliceliddell, fwiw I agree with your points, just not the example.

Thanks SybilBeddows - I have not read the Cordelia Fine book so will look out for it.

OK dice, cool with me

dice

Thanks everyone for that brilliant discussion of why "strong woman" is repellent, I have thought so for years.

Sorry to go on when it's all been done so well by you lot, but also:

there is the tone of surprise - the person saying it is often congratulating themselves for recognising strength in a woman, thereby showing that they are wise and tolerant and filled with love and awe for the mystery that is womanhood;

men who speak of "strong women" in their family are often thinking they will impress you by doing this, as you are a feminist, so you will adore them for having and recognising a "strong woman" for a mother or sister. However, as HereBeBex says, this is often a euphemism for having been crapped on by men chronically and systematically for many years, not only without actually dying, but still holding things together for those they love, that is: for the very man who is trying right now to use this fact to sell himself to you as a mate. So in other words what he is saying is: my dad treated my mum like shit, drank and gambled all the money, my mum fainted with hunger several times in my childhood while putting food on the table for me, aren't women great, in fact better than men, and when we are together I will behave like an irresponsible entitled brat and you will uncomplainingly work and keep house and feed me and the kids, because women are Strong.

Those two points are about people describing other people as Strong Women. Women who do it themselves are .... oh, don't start me.

From Zoe Williams' article, it sounds like the writer made the classic mistake that I have made myself, it all made sense when she wrote it out in the book, but as soon as she got out there and was challenged by others, she interpreted it as a personal attack, and not the justified critique that it was.

I agree the publishers probably just wanted the word 'erotic' in the title.

You could say she put the "rot" in erotic.

I'll get my coat.

I'm loving the comments about being a 'strong woman'. Like others, I've always found it an odd term and now I know why.

Projectbabyweight - I loled anyway.

Cristina Odone's review in the Telegraph

I'll leave you to extract your own favourite sentences...

She was on PM the other day.
What I simply don't understand is why she was saying that people ignore this tendency for beautiful, charming and groomed people to get ahead in life.
NO THEY DON'T IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE YOU TWIT
And not always applicable anyway or we'd have society divided by physical appearance to a far greater degree than it is.