Your fictional feminist heroines

[CaptainNancyBlackett]

(dittany here)

Literature and fiction are some of the few places where decent female role models can exist for women and girls, because women who live in an imaginary world can be free of quite a lot of sexism and patriarchal control. Fiction is definitely one of the places that inspired me and also helped me see that there could be another world where women could be strong and admirable and live life on their own terms. That they could be the kind of people you'd want to be yourself.

I was thinking about this because I was remembering how much I loved Captain Nancy Blackett after listening to a radio programme about Arthur Ransome and Swallows and Amazons. What could be better than being an Amazon pirate sailing in the Lake District, taking out wishy washy Swallows? She was just so exciting.

So who are your favourite feminist heroines from fiction (they don't have to be self-proclaimed feminists and fiction doesn't just have to be literature) and what do they mean to you?

(I'm giving this name back to the real Captain Nancy after this thread)

interesting that we would probably but elizabeth bennet but not bridget jones even though the basic plot and characters are the same

Yes, the plot is the same but I would say the characters are very different - Elizabeth Bennett is outspoken, well-read, confident and witty. Bridget Jones is insecure, thick, and desperate (note: I do love the book but she is a caricature).

And the time makes a difference too - Elizabeth held fairly feminist values for the time she lived in; Bridget Jones really just wants a man and is little use without one (and let's face it, probably not a lot of use with one either).

I hardly need to state mine.
She has been my alter ego for over 30 years...

Also:

Pippi Longstocking- so amazingly strong, resilient, resourceful, and quite madcap too.

Anne of Green Gables.

Susan from Doug Coupland's Microserfs.

Y.T. from Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash.

Thursday Next is good too- courageous, quick-witted, dogged.

Jean Paget from A Town Like Alice was pretty special too. Not only the way she lead the group, and helped them survive, but all she did after her inheritance, building up the town, making opportunities for women, and then going back to help the Malay women, building a well to make a difference to their daily lives.

Osono and Ursula from Kiki's Delivery Service are fantastic. I think many of the Studio Ghibli films are great in fact- lots of strong, morally good characters, gender is not important.

Pratchett lovers seem to be forgetting Lady Sybil Ramkin. Despite her gentlewomanly origins, she is exceptionally resourceful and practically minded. Of course, she does also on occasion darn Sam Vines' socks... not v well though

The girl from True Grit is quite impressive - forget her name and too lazy to check!

Pratchett lovers are also ignoring pretty much all the characters from Monstrous Regiment too.

Nell from Neil Stephenson's The Diamond Age is a powerful character.

As for children's books, Tracy Beaker is a great character and Jacqueline Wilson does a really good line in heroines.

Kate Atkinson's female protagonists are always original and posess wit, resourcefulness, imagination and individualism. They often subvert (unintentionally or intentionally) female norms and expectations; they are rarely subjected to moral determinism (good woman / bad woman) by either the author or the other characters. They do unexpected things and do not generally get punished for them, and they are never conventionally attractive.

From The Women's Room, Mira (to some extent) but more Val, I think. That's probably because I spent so much of the book frustrated with Mira though ...

This turned into a bit of an essay without me realising.

I like the Discworld books a lot because the women characters in them are fully realised, original and interesting and the books directly address the problems with the way women are often written in fantasy - I think in the early Discworld novels, there are a number of swipes at fantasy novel cover art, and those stock "barbarian warrior princess in really skimpy clothing" characters you get in fantasy. And Susan is awesome - her name surely a reference to the sensible Susans of Narnia and Ransome? It's sort of like she's Pratchett's revenge on CS Lewis - she gets to be super sensible and practical, yet totally badass and gets to have sex without anything bad happening. And although her job is looking after children she's such a vivid character that she's not defined by it.

I think Anne Shirley and Jo March (and Captain Nancy, of course!) were formative characters for me, but something bothers me about the way both Jo and Nancy are written side by side with female characters who are ... hmm ... less than amazing? Amy, Peggy, Susan - it's sort of like Ransome didn't really bother to create personalities for Peggy and Susan - they are basically devices that allow all the adventures to happen because they are so sensible and capable and good at cooking buttered eggs and whatnot. And this is true to a lesser extent of Susan in Narnia, who exists alongside the beautifully realised Lucy - she's partly there to be a mother figure and is largely defined by her beauty. Which makes her fate in The Last Battle seem particularly cruel because Lewis didn't even bother developing her character enough to explain properly why she rejects Narnia.

I guess it boils down to: I love characters like Nancy, but it worries me that maybe part of the reason I love them is because they are so vivid compared to other female characters that the author has done a disservice to in not developing fully. And to what extent do I like them because they have masculine traits (and in some cases, reject being women)?

I suppose it depends on how you personally decide whether a character is feminist - whether it's because they have some character trait or because they are written as a fully realised person. I guess I probably tend to the latter, but that is not to say I am not partial to a kickass woman now and then.

FairPhyllis- good point. I think the fate of Susan Pevensie some what more disturbing than that of Susan Walker- she isn't allowed to return to Narnia because she has become a stuck-up, conceited young woman with her head full of silly ideas such as make-up, young men and fashion (paraphrasing Lewis' own words).

I find this almost indescribably sad- because whilst it is laudable to want girls to aspire to something other than make-up, stockings, and lovers it is also saying that it is desirable for girls to not want girly things, but to be like young men.

Nancy I suppose is a boy in all but name, (though she struggles with this when the GA is around) whereas I think that Lucy Pevensie is protrayed in a very care-giving role- she is strong and feminine.

But I still like Nancy more

Jo March. Marmee March. Pippi longstocking. Clarice bean.
Charlotte Grey.

Have you read Neil Gaiman's short story, The Problem of Susan? It's a very good (and sad) critique of Lewis's treatment of her. I always think it's terribly sad that she can't go into Narnia with them all just because she's started liking boys - after all, most of the other characters end up getting married at some point.

Professor macgonagall

I'm probably misremembering, but didn't Susan Pevensie have The Sex, and was thus banned from Narnia? Isn't there one book where she's away for the hols, because she's married or going to be married? I've got this wrong, haven't I ?

Marquise de Merteuil from dangerous liaisons

I haven't steamedtreacle... but it's interesting Gaiman did that. I think he often tries to write strong, rounded female characters- possibly because he has 2 daughters

Thursday Next
Scarlett O'Hara for her attitude - they'd all have died (in a ladylike way) without her
Kay Scarpetta
And, a story from my childhood, Maude Reed here. She doesn't want to be a lady, she wants to a wool merchant. I loved this book...

Florence Banner from Tipping The Velvet. Out and proud, bags of personal integrity, and a passionate socialist.

I forgot Matilda! And the Grandmother from The Whitches.

Did anyone else love female baddies much more than heroines? Thinking of childhood films, I loved Cruella de Ville, the stepmother from Snow White and Ursula from The Little Mermaid. They were funny and interesting and powerful. Of course, as I got older I realised that all their power was derived from screwing over other women. Very sad.

Why is there an 'h' in Witches?!

fair - that's such a good point, I totally agree.

With Susan, she starts liking makeup and clothes ... so she can't possibly be a soul worth saving (which, given Lewis's underlying concept, is what he is saying!). I really found that spiteful when I read it.

If we're allowed ones from very un-literary books, can I have Sarah the Owl from Owl Babies?! I love her rather a lot. And lovely Owl Mummy, who has to go out hunting (is she a single mum?), but still comes home and cuddles them.

I like Imogen Quy, and Mall, from Jill Paton Walsh's books,
Carol Shields' characters in Unless (the mother and her daughters),
Elly in John Marsden's teenage series (I love that she is a brilliant driver does stuff like blowing up buildings and driving through bullet storms ... in a tractor!),
Barbara Trapeido's heroines, especially Katherine,
Ruth Galloway in Elly Griffiths' three novels (brilliant! and spooky),
Andrea in the Sterkarm books,
Anil in Anil's Ghost (Michael Ondaatje),
Dicey Tillerman in Cynthia Voigt's books,
Cottia in The Eagle of the Ninth,
Catherine McKenna in Grace Notes (Bernard MacLaverty - please read this, it is so good and I can't say why without spoilers),
Tyke Tyler,
all Diana Wynne Jones's women!

I'd forgotten about Cottia, she is great

Thursday Next is also a great character

this thread is providing a fab new reading list for me. thanks all.

on the susan discussion...

cs lewis was heavily influenced by a scottish writer, george mcdonald who wrote: Lilith, which I'd recommend a reading of to see where Susan's character comes from. MacDonald's Lilith is all about the redemption of a fallen woman and it's treatment of women is shocking in feminist terms. I think it's the Christian influences.

Here's what Lewis has to say about MacDonald:

"I know hardly any other writer who seems to be closer, or more continually close, to the Spirit of Christ Himself. Hence his Christ-like union of tenderness and severity. Nowhere else outside the New Testament have I found terror and comfort so intertwined. ? In making this collection I was discharging a debt of justice. I have never concealed the fact that I regarded him as my master; indeed I fancy I have never written a book in which I did not quote from him. But it has not seemed to me that those who have received my books kindly take even now sufficient notice of the affiliation. Honesty drives me to emphasize it."

That's interesting - I have read some George MacDonald but never Lilith, I'll have to have a look at it.

I do love the Narnia books but there are some odd bits - like making fun of Eustace and his parents because they're teetotal and vegetarian (the horror!)

On the other hand, some of his female characters are very strong - like Aravis, running away from an arranged marriage. And they all seem to be OK at fighting.

I like Miss Havisham in the Jasper Ffffforde books but I'm not sure if she counts here or not.

And yes, yes, yes to Clarice Bean!

elizabeth bennett
jo marsh
the movie version of the girls in narnia
jane eyre
helen from wildfell hall

i always wanted to be the 'tomboy' one in books - like 'george' in famous 5, the one who can't do ballet in ballet shoes, the didakoi etc.

in peter pan, i wanted to be peter, not wendy.