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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'I cried when I saw my first Pussycat Doll costume'

67 replies

WillieWaggledagger · 13/08/2011 10:47

Interview with Nicole Scherzinger in Marie Claire (i know, a bastion of feminist ideals etc)

The bit that made me so sad and angry was in the last paragraph:

'"I cried when I saw my first Pussycat Doll costume. It was my first photo shoot, and I wasn't used to wearing clothes like that," Scherzinger says of her skimpy outfits. Remind her of the catsuit she was sewn into for a performance last year on British X Factor, though, and the former theater nerd laughs at how far she's come. "Crazy, isn't it? My friends from high school were like, 'Oh, my gosh, our sweet little Nicole!'" she says. "It's growing up, though, right? I'm a woman, and it's part of owning what you are."'

OP posts:
LaBelleFrotheur · 15/08/2011 16:00
JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 15/08/2011 16:00

Grin gapants.

I don't think many women would want to see a man, not matter how delectable he was, wearing something along those lines. Andy Bell (I'm just so current, me Grin )wears some pretty out there kit but I suppose the big difference is that he's not trying to appeal to women.

Male and female performers dress in sexually appealing clothing. What appeals to male and femal audiences however is different. I have no idea to what extent that difference is biological or social but I'm not sure that a female performer exposing acres of flesh is worse than a topless male performer in absurdly tight trousers.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 15/08/2011 16:02

cripes - x-posts. Give me a mo...

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 15/08/2011 16:07

KRIKRI that does make sense and I agree with you.

I'm probably contradicting myself at every turn here - in my defence I'm trying to make sense of it all still.

I do know that I wouldn't want the sex removed from music though.

joaninha · 15/08/2011 16:08

"But often imo (not on this thread, but elsewhere on MN) objecting to the way some women dress is another manifestation of that."

Jenai, you are right and it makes me sad that certain women are so critical of how other women dress. But it is so much easier to go along with society's values than oppose them especially when you have been bashed over the head with them so many times.

joaninha · 15/08/2011 16:23

"I do know that I wouldn't want the sex removed from music though."

Sorry to keep quoting you Jenai, I'm not picking on you honest!!

For me, it's not about taking the sex out of music but rather allowing performers (female in this case) to express their sexuality (if they want to) in a way that is comfortable to them and not forcing them into a bland plasticized sexuality. IMO what is natural is sexy and there is nothing natural about the kind of soft porn style that pervades our screens.

It's such a waste of talent, because I'm sure it puts a lot of girls off entering into music.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 15/08/2011 16:34

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, joaninha.

AbsDuCroissant · 15/08/2011 16:34

I hate the double standard when it comes to outfits on mysic videos. I end up seeing a lot (MTV at the gym) and there seems to be this rule that women have to wear as little as humanly possible, whereas men can wear as much as they like. They only video I can think of in the last few years which had a skimpily clad male was Mika in the "we are golden" video. There was even one about these two men who went to a pool party - naturellement, all the women in tiny bikinis, the men in jeans, hoodies and t shirts. I mean, seriously, if you're going to a pool party you don't wear jeans.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 15/08/2011 16:50

There was indeed a spate of videos a few years ago featuring ridiculous, posturing, fully-clothed men being writhed all over by women in bikinis.

I think it's a little better now (although to be fair I don't see an awful lot of videos these days).

KRIKRI · 15/08/2011 18:16

Jenai, I don't think you are contradicting yourself at all. :)

With Andy Bell, Mika and a few other male performers who are stylised in what could be seen as an androgynous/camp/transgender way, I think the "rules" and the politics are slightly different.

I haven't actually seen videos getting better - like ADC, I mostly saw these at the gym (thank heavens I changed flipping gyms - got right up my nose!) and the difference is impossible to ignore. And, I think this is quite a recent thing - as in the past maybe 6 or 8 years.

Okay, I remember some feminists getting aerated by that David Lee Roth "Just a Gigolo" video in the late 80's. It ripped the piss out of celebrity "culture" of the day and yes, included women in bikinis and lingerie, but good grief, they were still wearing far more than you see in videos today, and not writhing in mock sexual ecstasy. Heck, I think Roth even has his own bottom exposed in one part.

Geez, the Spice Girls in the "Wannabe" video are dressed and behaved like nuns by comparison with what is de rigueur now for female apparel in the music industry at the moment.

And, of course there are those who like to portray feminists who are concerned about the sexualisation and objectification of women in the music industry as prudes and kill joys. Hey, what's new?

ThePosieParker · 15/08/2011 18:57

But to be sexy as a woman you have to wear very little, seem available and vulnerable to be a man and sexy you have to be strong, powerful....

It's shit.

KRIKRI · 15/08/2011 20:22

Yes Posie, that sums it up perfectly :o

It's still shit though. :(

BibiBlocksberg · 15/08/2011 22:04

Good god, I must be officially getting old as I'm like Shock at that picture of eden's crush.

They may as well have photographed them naked!! There's no way any male, solo otherwise would/could be made to be pictuered with so little on.

TeamEdward · 15/08/2011 22:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BibiBlocksberg · 15/08/2011 22:40

Yup, def. old today - La Aguilara looks in need of a good wash in the second picture.

Too much grease (and flesh)

KRIKRI · 15/08/2011 23:51

How about these?

Debbie Gibson 1988
in 2001
and this year

or these?

Rihanna 2005
Rihanna 2011

solidgoldbrass · 16/08/2011 01:04

Ooh, someone mentioned The Darkness! I used to fancy the arse off the bass player...

.

abbscrosswoman · 16/08/2011 02:05

Is it not true, though, that most of the fanclubs and audiences for these scantily dressed performers are female ?

Can we still sensibly argue that a 16 year old girl fan born in 1995 has grown up conditioned to accept the objectiviaction of females ?

ThePosieParker · 16/08/2011 08:25

God yes, my DH works with young women that have lap dances, they are straight.

Quodlibet · 16/08/2011 09:08

And let's not forget <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=kylie+minogue+1988+calendar&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1279&bih=620&tbm=isch&tbnid=wEByZbv9KvsiIM:&imgrefurl=kya.pytalhost.net/news/2011/kylie_news_003.php&docid=8NAqTbYBcIcdGM&w=460&h=276&ei=7iRKTru3MMSO8gOs7dniCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=153&vpy=255&dur=2860&hovh=174&hovw=290&tx=121&ty=113&page=2&tbnh=94&tbnw=156&start=19&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:19" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">the young Kylie in 1988 and <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=kylie+minogue+2011&um=1&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1279&bih=620&tbm=isch&tbnid=Q25_DEsb8uyElM:&imgrefurl=www.hotwomenmagazine.com/articles/20101216x2.html&docid=qFsyZ6VZctVMsM&w=2308&h=3202&ei=JiRKTpG4Go-38QO4xeG_CQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1049&vpy=243&dur=2090&hovh=265&hovw=191&tx=126&ty=117&page=11&tbnh=166&tbnw=120&start=219&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:219" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">and in her 2011 calendar
My theory is that as women get older they have to take more clothes off 'to prove they've still got it'.

joaninha · 16/08/2011 09:13

oh now I feel depressed Sad

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 16/08/2011 10:04

My theory is that as women get older they have to take more clothes off 'to prove they've still got it'.

Possibly. I also wonder if some women (not necessarily in the public eye) are simply more confident. I know I am. I also get rather stroppy about expressions like "mutton dressed as lamb" so react against that a bit.

I acknowledge that there's a lot of tosh talked about "empowerment". There is more than a grain of truth in it though.

SGB I am going to see the Darkness in November :)

Quodlibet · 16/08/2011 11:08

Yeah but my point is Jenai why should confidence = nudity? This is the equation Gok Wan etc keeps selling us. Why does having confidence mean we think we are worthy of being looked at? Why can't confidence = speaking powerfully and convincingly about what we believe in, and being respected and valued for that? That's empowerment - not having a body that passes the imaginary standards for being looked at.

Because it's not a coincidence that the more time one spends cross-checking one's attractiveness against all the other naked and photographed women, and minutely examining the dimples in one's thighs, and the number of hairs visible on your bikini line, the less time one has to consider exactly why it is that women still remain the quieter sex, why they remain the 50% of the population who will, with almost no resistance, bear 72% of a new British Government's budget cuts. Who, world-wide, hold only 16% of the ministerial posts, earn only 10% of the world's income, and own only 1% of its wealth... .

KRIKRI · 16/08/2011 11:30

Excellent post Quodlibet. I understand that hearing other people praise your appearance can be something of a confidence-booster for both women and men. But, how can it be in any way fair that having the "right" appearance (which at the moment means thin, large bust, dressed to accentuate your shape and posing/behaving in a seductive manner,) is peddled as the most important if not only route for women to be confident, to be empowered?

This idea isn't new of course. We've had foot binding, corsets that cause permanent organ damage, extreme dieting, cosmetic surgery and less invasive but still time consuming, uncomfortable and often expensive trends for reshaping the body including shaving, waxing, girdles, hair perming, colouring and straightening and bucketfulls of cosmetics, not to mention all those vaginal deodorisers they aggressively market in America. The message seems to be the "normal" female form is defective - has to be "fixed" and the goal posts of the ideal form continuously shift. Women who don't cut it are "letting themselves go," but even if they do and are of a certain age, they are pilloried as "mutton dressed as lamb."

It's a no win situation, but I worry that young women now are pushed onto that beauty and sexualisation treadmill at ever younger ages, bombarded with constant messages that they have to do more, try harder, spend more (money and time) or you will be worthless as a human being.

And, while you are spending all your time and money "preening," you haven't got as much time for doing things with your brains and with your hands - creating stuff that isn't dependent on someone else's assessment of your value due to your appearance.

Ah, and the other sting in the tail is if you don't find happiness and fulfillment from all this, don't gain that ultimate confidence, aren't an unqualified success in life, then it's probably because you didn't try hard enough. Oh, and because it was a CHOICE that you made freely, you don't have any right to complain.

Urgh.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 16/08/2011 11:54

There's certainly a bizarre hyperreal aesthetic currently that appears to demand an awful lot of time and money to achieve for both sexes (women have fallen for it an awful lot more though).

However I wouldn't want to assume that a woman who has a high maintenance grooming regime (I don't, btw) is incapable of considering much beyond vajazzling and manicures.