equality and mums roles : Views?

[charlienotcharlotte]

have just come across this blog sleeplessnightsandnappydelights.blogspot.com/2011/07/womens-equality-or-has-it-all-become.html which sums up a lot of my friends who like me want to be treated as equal and yet find themselves doing the opposite. What are your views ladies? Has equality become more respected or are we now doing everything and working in an attempt to hang onto a semblance of equality?

I'm just questioning your use of the term "playing to their strenghths".

Women's strengths aren't picking up men's shit. And if everyone thinks they are, then we have to look at the systemic reasons why that might be so.

That's all.

I don't pick up his shit. He's quite capable of doing that himself..

His strength is working and earning more than me. Which gives me the choice of working or not working, part time or not, running my own business or not, employing domestic help or not.

I'd say that was pretty liberating.

Wallis this thread isn't about you and your set up that you are happy with. I am very glad you are happy and you have found an equal situation that suits both of you. But the woman with the blog and countless women on MN aren't happy because that 50:50 split isn't there or because they get end up with all the shit jobs and their partner gets all the "big" jobs and the praise that goes along with that.

If you aren't happy, why tolerate it?

Some people only behave as others allow them to.

"Some people only behave as others allow them to." and some people behave like that regardless.

There are many varied and complex reasons why women tolerate situations like this. I am not going into them now as I am going to bed. But I am sure if you do a bit of research you could find them out yourself (if you are interested).

Forkful : no its not! The blogger used to have a differenty blog on a parenting site which I followed for a while. She changed her blog when she got some harsh comments on the previous site.

Hand dived, yep, I know.
It is never women's choice to put up with crap men , never anything whatsoever to do with them and their expectations and behaviour. It's always they way they were raised, or low self esteem or, usually , The Patriarchy.

Some men ( and women) are selfish, self absorbed and generally pretty unpleasant people and useless partners.
Some of us will give people like this a wide berth, some of us will hook up with them and try to change them and some of us will hook up with them and put up with them, regardless.
'Twas ever thus and will ever be. I know plenty of men who put up with women who behave like this too, can't blame The Patriarchy for that! *

• Awaits someone who tries to

Wallissimpson If you aren't happy, why tolerate it?

Do you honestly think it is as simple as one man acting in isolation on his own and one woman acting in isolation "putting up with it".

Have you not considered the wider cultural norms which contribute to situations like on the blog OP posted.

EG we are in an world where a father is praised for "babysitting" "oh isn't he good with the baby" "changing nappies!" and a woman is seen as "unable to cope" if "she needs help from the babies father" etc.

A feminist analysis looks at these wider cultural concerns.

Is it really easy for a woman to leave such a man? Much easier than in the past - divorce/benefits for single mothers/ability to have own bank account/own property etc.

However what does our culture say about this situation "put up or shut up" "that's just men isn't it" "feckless single mothers" "a baby needs it's father".

Why does the father do so little to help - is he modelling his father?

Personally, for me when I think about all the above together as a system I think of this as being The Patriarchy.

Take a look at Ann Oakley's website (go to Publications - Non fiction - second one down Housewife).

In that extract - Is it really that woman's fault the situation she is in. (NB I am not saying it is just her husband's fault although he could stop going to to the pub all day and bloody well share the household tasks - more that it is is the cultural attitude that allows that scenario to continue).

This is the same culture which led to:

a) My father not sharing household and childcare tasks when on holidays or on Sundays - other days there really was a period of time where he worked outside the home too many hours to do so.

b) My FIL saying recently about a dishwasher (argument about how it should be loaded) - MIL says "I don't know why you don't leave my dishwasher to me - I managed perfectly well before you retired" (note due to their set up she thinks of it as "hers") - then FIL saying "it's my dishwasher because my money bought it" - uh actually my MIL did work (SAHM, then part time then WAHM - in a much lower paid job that FIL - and of course her SAHMing allowed him to work in his career which involved stints working abroad!).

I'm in my forties. My dad is the most feminist man I know bar DH.
All my life he was hands on, cooked, cleaned, looked after us. It was all I knew, total equality between men and women.

I married a man who was brought up by a downtrodden, miserable woman with no self esteem and who genuinely believed her role was to serve ( she actually used that word), her husband ( who left her and took the house which she agreed to because, after all, she didn't work so it wasn't hers!) and son.

As a result, DH was 18 and a student before he ever made a cup of tea. Does he admire his mother? No.
Is he now a useless crap male? Far, far from it. He is as much a feminist as a man can be. Partly because he despises his mothers attitude and partly because he knows darn well I would never tolerate it.

What's your point Wallis?

I hope he despises his father's attitude more than his mother's, Wallis.

And does he realise that both of their attitudes are rife in society and constantly backed up by cultural messages?

Your parents were unusual - his weren't.

See, Wallissimpson - that's great that your dad and your DH are feminist men.

But you are lucky! It is unhelpful for you to say She's insane to put up with him without putting that into context and looking at how she can try to change things personally and how we can all try to influence society.

sAf - perfect sense!

My father took on a lot of repsonsibility at home while working full-time (due to circumstances, probably not choice) and I thought most men did that. I was shocked out of that belief when I first lived with a man. I know my upbringing was unusual (especially for the time) and it's been a struggle to deal with the fact that some men simply don't expect to do their fair share.

SaF I think it is summed up in the idea that people don't get what they want in life, they get what they expect.

If they're lucky, like Wallis, what they want and what they expect is the same thing. But if you've had a childhood where your expectations were set differently, you may consciously want something, but your sub-conscious expects something different and as we all know, your sub-conscious is so much more powerful than your conscious mind - and so that's why you ahve to consciously work so hard to re-wire those expectations, getting back to your point about having to think and work harder at it.

I agree with wallissimpson. Women will never be equal until everyone stops scoffing at home work (child care (one's own), cleaning, cooking, gardening, etc) as being somehow less worthy of respect than other work just because it is unpaid. That is the crux. Anyone who does these jobs and gets paid for doing them immediately gets a status increment because they have a 'proper job'. Women are as much to blame as men in this respect. Ask a SAHM if she works and what is the most likely answer? Not, "of course I bloody work!" but something more like "no, I'm a full time mum".
And no, men don't have to do the same jobs as women, or vice-versa. You share out the jobs that need doing between you. One, and only one, of those is getting (note the word getting) money. All the rest of the jobs are work too, as is raising kids.

And some of the most scathing attacks on SAHm come form other women.

Then some posters on MN who profess to be feminists, aren't.

I've seen SAHm referred to as SHAMs or folders and fluffers and we all know Xenia's opinions on those who SAH.

Good to know SAF