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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It would be nice if feminism was easy and unchallenging - I don't think it can be though. What do you reckon?

49 replies

Beachcomber · 16/07/2011 16:01

Hi sisters. I haven't been on MN much recently so it appears I missed some threads on the main board in which some posters who post in the feminist section were commented on in a personal way. I have caught up with those threads and also understand that dittany, one of the posters concerned, is taking a break from MN as a result. I don't know if Sakura or any of the other posters concerned also feel this way - I certainly hope not.

Anyway, as someone who was part of the feminist section when it first started, when it was just a few threads and a few posters, not like now we we are big and busy! I wanted to say something about all this.

First of all, I would like to be clear that this is NOT a thread in which to resurrect what went on in the other threads. It is not a thread to go over what was said or not said by so and so. The reason that it is not that sort of thread is because that would only drag the whole thing on again and would no doubt cause hurt and distress to the posters concerned. I also have no interest in this thread being a dig at anyone who has said anything about feminists, the feminist section or any posters on it in the last while on MN.

If this thread turns into any of those things, I will report it and get it pulled.

Now, I know this is a public forum and people can post what they like, when they like, and who the hell am I to be telling anyone what to do, right?

Well, I'm no one, so of course I can't tell anybody what to do, but I can politely ask them. I am asking just one simple thing - if you agree with the premise of this post then add a comment and stand up and be counted.

OK, thank you for reading so far - now for the proper content of this OP!

It is my opinion, that feminism is challenging. Feminism is challenging because it picks apart the status quo and finds it wanting. Feminism is challenging because it takes us out of our comfort zone and encourages us to examine our world, our lives and ourselves in a different manner to that to which we are used. Feminism challenges us because feminist analysis is unpopular and denigrated within the status quo - and that makes feminists unpopular and denigrated too. Feminism is a challenge because it messes with our heads and makes us think about difficult and often distressing issues.

Feminism is essentially a grass roots political movement - and it is a movement which has different schools of thought within it. A lot of the energy in the movement comes from people who are willing to stand up and be counted and point out the patriarchal bullshit that we are all taught to normalize, accept and internalize. Feminism has always had some strong voices in it, women who push boundaries and take no prisoners - often those have been radical voices, but not always. Without such voices we wouldn't be where we are now and we wouldn't keep moving forward.

If you agree, to some extent, with the above, then thank you for saying so.

Can I politely and respectfully request that if you don't agree you could perhaps express those sentiments elsewhere? Thanks in advance for your respect and understanding.

OP posts:
BitOfFun · 17/07/2011 01:45

I think there should be room for a wide range of thought on here. If you disagree, just say so, ideally say why, and move on. There's simply no need for back-biting and personal attacks. I don't always agree with Dittany, for example, but I enjoy being challenged by her logic, and I hope she returns. The diversity of views here is part of the board's strength.

swallowedAfly · 17/07/2011 01:48

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blackcurrants · 17/07/2011 02:18

Yama your post resonated very strongly with me. I was approaching 28 when a (male) friend I'd known for six-ish years said "you're a lot more, erm, strident than I think you were before." And it was at that point when I said out loud what I'd been trying to understand for ages: feminism so far has won me the right to do all the things men do. But when I want to do things only women do- get pregnant and give birth - then I fall off the carousel and I see that I didn't have the freedom to be a woman and achieve, only to do prized, historically male things (university, travel, career,) and achieve. Everyone said 'oh clever blackcurrants, aren't you great?" in my twenties, and I didn't like the pornification of popular culture, but I didn't feel like the world was organized against me/ indifferent to things I wanted to do and be.

Since getting pregnant and giving birth, I see that the world still disparages, undervalues and over-judges mothering. I see a sexist world. In some senses, while I've been a feminist since I was fourteen, I've found being a feminist challenging in the past few years as I stepped off the treadmill a little. Motherhood radicalized me.

garlicbutter · 17/07/2011 02:25

Cheers, Beach.

Yama - I better be careful or people would start to think I was "one of those" Shock

I would have had so much fun with him/her ...

sunshineandbooks · 17/07/2011 08:28

blackcurrants - that's a really good post. You've articulated exactly what happened to me.

Before having children I defined feminism in terms of equal rights and opportunities. But my feminism was very much through a male gaze. I simply wanted the right to do the same things as men unhindered by my sex.

Since having children I realise that society has done a lot of catching up in terms of equal rights but it has largely failed to address the right for women to be women and not penalised by the things that women do.

Motherhood is what 'radicalised' me too.

VictorGollancz · 17/07/2011 08:32

Agree with much of what is expressed here. Interesting thread, thanks!

Grumpla · 17/07/2011 09:13

Blackcurrants your post resonated with me as well.

I was really unprepared for the amount of shit I had to deal with when I returned to work after having my DS. Constant comments about "don't you miss him?" and "where is DS?" every bloody day. Um, he's with his dad!

I was made to feel like I should have been grateful that they even had me back, and as for promotion etc - ha!

And the flip side - the number of friends I literally never saw again after DS was born. The glazed expression when I told people I was on maternity leave... The bloody isolation...

I was a feminist before motherhood but being smart, gobby, middle class, fairly conventional high achiever, I felt that I had sidestepped a lot of the direct impact of sexism. It all caught up with me in the end though!

I feel that feminism has been essential to getting through it though. It has given me a framework to understand some of what's going on, to say "this is unacceptable" rather than "I must be going bonkers" and to make some much needed changes.

It's also made me realise that I am much more part of society than I had sometimes felt. I can't solve all my own problems in isolation - some of them are problems that all women face and we have to work together to sort it out. Yes it probably would be easier to be miserable and accept some of them. But why the hell should we?!?

ToothbrushThief · 17/07/2011 09:19

blackcurrants - great post
I agree with the main post.

annonforthis · 17/07/2011 09:21

yep-having children radicalised me aswell-i didnt realise it till later though.
Grumpla...."....and have to work together to sort it out...................."
yes-couldnt agree more.

BelleCurve · 17/07/2011 09:47

Another one chiming in to agree with blackcurrants - that is exactly my experience. Pre-motherhood, I could and did do anything men could do. But when I wanted to have a child the world seemed set against me.

Also, the contrast from reading legal contracts in the morning to an ante-natal appointment in the afternoon was just striking - all the information pastel coloured and in large, simple print. I am having a baby, not becoming one.

I am so grateful to this topic as it helped me realise it wasn't just happening to me, and I wasn't losing it.

swallowedAfly · 17/07/2011 10:57

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swallowedAfly · 17/07/2011 10:58

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mumwithdice · 17/07/2011 11:10

Agree with both OP and blackcurrants.

Yama · 17/07/2011 11:38

Ah Blackcurrants - you put it much better than me.

This is a nice thread. I think it is allowing a lot of us to try to explain why we see the world the way we do.

I read something nice the other day about bringing up children - that it is important that they see us learning. Feminism encourages this I believe.

Beachcomber · 17/07/2011 11:53

Thanks for all the contributions. I'm in a hurry just now but will read properly later on.

OP posts:
blackcurrants · 17/07/2011 15:15

BelleCurve "I am having a baby, not becoming one." OH GOD YES. The amount of times DH heard me say "I'm pregnant not stupid!" or "I'm having a baby not a fucking lobotomy" - he started yelling it along with me!
Grin

Beachcomber · 17/07/2011 20:23

ITA that becoming a mother changes one's perspective. Suddenly feminism takes on a real life relevance that it didn't have before. I don't like the way the dynamic between DH and I has been forced to change either. I blame the patriarchy.

OP posts:
SeniorWrangler · 17/07/2011 20:52

Looking back, I was startlingly radicalised by the age of about eight, which was in the mid-1970s. I remember pointing out the sexism in assuming eight year old boys were regularly asked to carry chairs from the classroom to the school hall, whereas eight year old girls were exempted for no obvious reason other than being female. "Girls are just as able to carry chairs," I argued. The HT agreed with me and from then on all of us had to do it. (Bit of an own goal, that).

Fast forward to the sixth form. From the age of eleven I had been in an all-girls school, where strangely, we were simultaneously encouraged to be strong leaders and passive wifies. I think that's where the rot started. I think it didn't occur to me to do a thrusting, career minded subject at university because we were encouraged to apply to do degrees in safe subjects we had A Levels in (unlike the boys' school we were linked to, with hindsight). Many girls went into allied health professions, teaching, childcare, secretarial work and so on, even though this was a pretty academic school and many people went to really good universities and colleges. So I ended up doing something that wasn't brilliantly paid, and which didn't always present the best opportunities for advancement, because I had been thoroughly programmed to do something 'worthy' and based in the arts/humanities rather than doing something lucrative or powerful.

Fast forward again to 2011 and I sit here wondering WTF has happened. Nearly every job I have had has involved blatant sexism and discrimination sooner or later, I am constantly getting it in the neck for having kids by people who pretend they are enlightened, I am repeatedly sidelined, and if I stay at home with the kids people assume I have had a lobotomy and that I am incapable of cogent thought or knowledge of the wider world.

FFS this has to stop. We've had the vote for nearly a century now and I really despair at how appalling the treatment of most mothers is in this society. I think I am re-radicalising.

SeniorWrangler · 17/07/2011 20:54

PS This was all brought home to me as I was listening to the very excellent Mariella Frostrup on Radio 4 today talking about feminist literature, as I pressed my husband's trousers with the special iron that cost me a week's disposable income. Says it all, really.

Himalaya · 17/07/2011 21:39

I am in agreement all around Grin

swallowedAfly · 17/07/2011 21:43

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LRDTheFeministNutcase · 17/07/2011 21:48

SW - your school sounds very like mine. A quarter of the year (which is huge) did 4 A levels subjects plus general studies, but still huge numbers went on to do 'safe' subjects and they actively discouraged us from applying to competitive courses/places. I get cross at how well they encouraged us to double-think: we were constantly told how important academic success was (for the results), but in retrospect there was a complete mis-match between that emphasis and the idea of actually doing anything with your academic results!

HerBeX · 17/07/2011 23:24

LOL at your own-goal senior

forkful · 19/07/2011 13:38

Beachcomber - I totally agree with your OP. It's not easy being a feminist or thinking about feminist issues. Confused

I think every so often it's good to have a "welcome/come out of lurkdom/ask Qs here thread" to give a way "in" to people who find it challenging.

However posters here should not feel obliged to "teach" others. I happen to sometimes quite like it - hence my thread. And for me, personally it is my way of being an "activist" and sometimes helps me set my head straight.

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