The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

[DontCallMePeanut]

From The Telegraph

Sorry, my head's not in the right place to provide any critique of this at the moment, but thought this would interest the members of the feminist section. Will attempt to comment when I have a clearer head.

HRH I've no idea what you're talking about.

I'm inventing your children for the sake of argument, of course I have no idea what they're like. I don't know about what you're talking about vis a child telling someone a different story from everyone else, now you mention it, it rings a vague bell but it's not something I was thinkng of when I posted and my only recollection of it is you mentioning it somewhere else, but I promise you I wasn't referring to it because I had forgotten all about it until you mentioned it just now. You're projecting stuff into my posts that isn't there. I also don't assume your DS is gay either btw, I'm asking you to imagine how you would feel if he were and that happened to him (but I don't know, maybe he is, seriously, i don't remember anything you've ever said about your DC's, you attribute far too much to my memory).

But that is the rpoblem HRH - masses and masses of rape cases, are those where the woman has not been "actively participating" but because she hasn't outright said "NO!" everyone says "that's not rape".

And of course, that's why women don't report it - becuse they themselves think "that's not rape". They blame themselves - "if I hadn't been a bit drunk" "if I'd been clearer that I didn't want that" "he didn't realise I wasn't up for it, I didn't make myself clear".... rape victims go through a plethora of minimising, long before anyone else minimises it for them. And so by the time they tell someone else, who usually backs up their minimisation, they have convinced themselves that it wasn't rape and it was just a bad sexual experience that should be shrugged off.

That is the most common result of most rapes. Women blaming themselves and shrugging it off. We don't need to tell our daughters to do that, every other fucker out there is already telling them to. It's not our job as mothers to groom our daughters to invalidate their own feelings about their own experiences (let's hope they won't have that experience, but 1 in 4 of them will. )

"Well I have to say, I have no idea what you are referring to either"

I'm referring to the well-known truth that most rape victims never tell anyone about their rape, unless it's an anonymous rape counsellor or market researcher. However close people think their friendships and relationships are, they should never assume that they can categorically guarantee that their daughter/ mother/ sister/ wife/ best friend has not been raped - because the likelihood is that if she has, she will not have told you, or anyone else about it.

Which bit?

HRH I see what you're saying but I think you're got yourself stuck into defending a position that doesn't really exist.

I'm reading your hypothetical situation as saying this: what if two people have slightly drunken but definitely consensual sex and then the next day the woman decides she didn't give consent even though she very clearly did at the time.

Have I got that right?

See, I think that kind of situation, where there is a 'retraction' of consent is rare.

In your hypothetical situation, where two people have mutually consensual but slightly drunken sex it would be unusual for her to change her mind the following day. Why would she? If she freely gave her consent at the time she'd presumably be as happy as he is in the morning. I think this goes on a lot and most people do not regret it.

If she changes her mind because her perception in the morning is so significantly different from the night before, then obviously she was somewhat more than slightly drunk. Therefore, she was vulnerable and incapable of giving genuine consent. You can only conclude that her partner has taken advantage (i.e. raped her).

If she changes her mind because of fear of consequences (i.e. makes a false allegation), well it happens but we've already established that it is incredibly rare.

I agree with you that two people can have slightly drunken sex without there being rape involved. I think in cases where a woman 'changes her mind' subsequently though, you will nearly always find that she probably wasn't just slightly drunk and that she was coerced or forced (i.e. raped).

HRH but the "wouldn't have done it if I were sober" means that consent wasn't genuinely given, even if the word "yes" was used IMO.

The sort of situation you describe is unlikely to happen in healthy long-term relationships, where there is a whole load of context and you know each other well enough to know if someone's behaviour is being affected by alcohol.

If you don't know the person that well then you should not be having sex with them if they have been drinking. Would you get in a car with someone you'd seen having a drink in a nightclub without establishing exactly how many they'd had to find out if they were fit to drive? The same should apply to someone whose body you are going to penetrate. And if the answer is "more than two" then you should assume that consent is not concrete and sex is best avoided. Any hint of consent being changeable should result in an automatic decision not to go ahead.

Well loads of 'one night stands' happen certainly many people have sex outside of a relationship. And in most situations that drunken consent is given both people are as drunk as each other, I think it's a bit unfair to expect one of them to think rationally when equally drunk and the other person is clearly participating.

Many one night stands happen, yes. Those that don't involve alcohol and where consent is given fine. These go on a lot.

One night stands where alcohol is involved? Like I said earlier, if consent was that freely given, why would she change her mind the next day? She wouldn't.

It's as simple as that really. If your behaviour is so radically different when sober, then you are drunk. Therefore, you are not giving consent.

If the default position is don't have sex with someone who has been drinking and whom you don't know that well, because you cannot be sure about consent, that's a message that both men and women can internalise.

But liability will end up on the man because he is the one doing the act of penetration. The woman ends up bearing far more of the risk - physical injury, pregnancy, higher risk of catching STIs, trauma.

So you are saying sex which you regret afterwards is rape even if you consented at the time with a person who was as equally drunk as you?

If so then would a man who has had sex which he regrets be sexually assaulted?

Yes. If I am drunk, I am still capable of seeing if someone else is drunk. So I won't be having sex with them even if I fancy them and they have said it's ok. I have actually been in this position and the man in question thanked me for it the following day.

And yes, I was a bit disappointed because the opportunity never arose again, but I'd far rather be disappointed than know I'd sexually assaulted someone.

Why are we assuming men cannot control themselves here? The vast majority can and they can do it as easily as I did in that situation above.

And yes, I would consider a man to be sexually assaulted if the situation were reversed, but the degree of assault is significantly different for a man than for a woman, and the consequences bear no comparison.

If I am so drunk I cannot see how drunk my potential sex partner is, then in the same way that most drunks do not go sky-diving off towers because they know it is bad for them, most drunks should be capable of knowing that they should not be having sex because they can't tell if the woman is too drunk to give proper consent.

All that is required is a cultural shift in how we perceive rape. At the moment we don't take it seriously enough unless it is stranger rape a la dark alley.

I am not assuming anything,

I could equally say that your assuming women can't control themselves since you accept that alcohol makes people lose their inhibitions and make choices they may not make completely sober but even though both people will be in a similar state the man is the one who should have control?

Despite the woman giving positive responses and willingly having sex at the time but because she decides she rather they didn't have sex the next day what took place was rape.