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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Myths About Women Who "Cry Rape"

718 replies

DontCallMePeanut · 07/07/2011 01:56

From The Telegraph

Sorry, my head's not in the right place to provide any critique of this at the moment, but thought this would interest the members of the feminist section. Will attempt to comment when I have a clearer head.

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DontCallMePeanut · 09/07/2011 15:25

IC, thank you! I hadn't come across that article, yet, so thank you!

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Catitainahatita · 09/07/2011 15:59

TBH I think we are going in circles here trying to argue people who do not accept the basic premises from which feminists start when talking about rape.

  1. The framework of the justice system: investigation by the police, trial by jury etc. is not the problem. It convicts and acquits on the basis of evidence and argument.
  1. The problem is the social attitudes which inform and deform the process. For example: in a rape trial the defence often is based on discrediting the victim; raking over her past for things that "society" might consider reasons for the charge to be considered untrue or unlikely. Her sexual history is somehow considered relevant to the rape charge and is presented as evidence to the jury. Conversely mentioning any previous charges or convictions against the defendent is not permitted because that might prejudice the trial against him.
  1. For conviction rates to improve and for women to report rape more often, what needs to be changed are these social attitudes. Women worry that they will not be believed, not because of some bunch of feminists campaigning for better treatment of rape victims, but because they realise that if they go ahead and report a rape, they and everything they have done will also be on trial as well. It takes a lot of guts to take this on.

This is why that trying to improve conviction rates just by telling women that they should report more rapes, isn't really going to work. There has to be a parallel emphasis and a concerted effort to bring about the erradication of the idea that women are/can be even "partially responsible" for being raped; that it is dubious that a sexworker or someone who has previously had many sexual partners would ever say no to sex; that it is questionable that a women who agrees to go on a date/ kiss/ enter the home or bedroom of man would then say no to sex.

This would help conviction rates and reporting rates. A win-win on all accounts.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 09/07/2011 19:40

Very well put, Catita.

You're welcome, Peanut! With thanks to Proles who first flagged it up to me...

MarySueFTW · 09/07/2011 20:10

Catitainahatia

  1. The Observer piece made a good case that there are serious problems with investigation by the police. I think most would agree that sentences are often too light too.
  1. You can't have a defence that doesn't try to discredit the alleged victim as a liar, if the accused is using the defence that it was consensual, and thus she is lying. Even if you got 100% of people to agree with the statement 'a woman is never partially responsible for being raped,' if the defendant says it was consensual the same thing will happen. Unless you want to change the law so that previous convictions should be known to the jury? In some cases this seems fair, but there are massive drawbacks too. Previous convictions will affect sentencing, not convinced they should be used to establish guilt.

And if you read the Amnesty poll, which I criticised, 92% of people thought a woman's sexual past made her 'responsible' (their words) for being raped. The defence may try to use it, but social attitudes don't need changing on that issue.

And there is no evidence that there is a mass of people who think going on a date means you wouldn't say no to sex. It's absurd, and I'll prove it. The poll revealed that roughly 20% of respondents thought a woman was 'partially responsible' if she got raped while being drunk or dressing provocatively. (Another 5% thought it made her totally responsible(!))At first glance, it seems you are right, those people need to get with the program and say 'no woman is EVER responsible for being raped, no matter what.'

Except, to quote you, I think you are going to go in circles there trying to argue with people who do not accept the basic premises from which feminists start when talking about rape. They were asked a question where they couldn't agree that such actions made you still 'totally not responsible.' As others have mentioned, these people are probably thinking 'it's common sense.' The poll says the people who answer this tend to be much older, so good luck changing their minds, and they'll be, er, dead soon anyway.

But here's where I finally prove my point. Whatever that 20% of people say in a phone survey, when they are on a jury, they may well think the victim was 'partially responsible' but they still convict. Yes? Conviction rates are 60% according to that article, 50% according to another. You need a unanimous verdict to say guilty, or if not 10/2. If people thought 'partially responsible' meant 'Their fault, they are to blame' then convictions wouldn't be so high.

Finally, no, not win/win. If women - and men - are led to believe they in a culture where nobody believes rape claims, that more people think women lie about rape than are raped, that it is pointless to report it as there is no chance that there will be a conviction, that your own prosecutor might lose the case on purpose because he wants to see rapists walk free, that it is only for the brave or the foolish to report it to police who will probably say 'ha, give over love you were probably asking for it!' - all rape myths I DO hear - then a victim is far less likely to seek justice and the rapist is free to do it again.

Child-abusers often say 'if you tell the police, nobody will believe you and you will get in trouble.' Lets not do the same thing to rape victims. Better to say 'things aren't perfect, it's hard to get a case to court and then to conviction on lots of violent crimes - but once there the conviction rate for rape is 50-60%. People will believe you. You can do it, get the bastard.'

MarySueFTW · 09/07/2011 20:14

"And if you read the Amnesty poll, which I criticised, 92% of people thought a woman's sexual past made her 'responsible' (their words) for being raped."

Should be '92% thought it had no bearing on her responsibility.'

MitchiestInge · 09/07/2011 20:22

Your 50 - 60% of convictions, you do realise those cases were not all convicted by juries don't you?

MarySueFTW · 09/07/2011 20:28

No... Then how?

LeninGrad · 09/07/2011 20:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

InmaculadaConcepcion · 09/07/2011 20:38

The conviction rate for rape cases that come to court is between 50 and 60%.

(and the majority of those convictions are from guilty pleas by the defendant)

The problem is the vast majority of rape cases don't ever make it to court.

An awful lot of victims (those that report their attack to the authorities - up to 90% don't even get that far) decide they can't go through with a second victimisation during the court case.

But the CPS also refuses to pursue cases where it doesn't believe they are in the public interest or where chances of a conviction aren't regarded as very high. The type of case where getting a conviction is regarded as unlikely are often those where the typical "rape myths" are likely to be enacted in the minds of a jury. The woman had been drinking, had a previous sexual relationship with her attacker, voluntarily went to a private space with him etc. etc.

So the circular nature of the problem is right there.

MarySueFTW · 09/07/2011 20:46

Ah I see, yes. Then you could say to rape victims 'and lots of men do plead guilty and you don't even need to go to court! Go for it, get the bastard.'

As opposed to 'It's pointless, men always get away with it, they won't believe you, the court will tear you to pieces, it'll be traumatic...' which all must admit is a very commonly repeated view.

MitchiestInge · 09/07/2011 20:54

it is traumatic though, most people who have experience of the process would agree

I should think less than a third of those convictions are from guilty pleas, but I wonder how many if any were judge-only trials and whether judges are still more inclined to acquit rapists. Do you remember when they were all 'we will ignore this' about statutory restrictions on witnesses' sexual history?

MitchiestInge · 09/07/2011 20:55

more inclined than juries I mean

LeninGrad · 09/07/2011 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontCallMePeanut · 09/07/2011 20:58

I actually see MarySue's point... By saying "well, y'know, there's no point taking it to the police cos it won't get to court...", we're disempowering women. BUT we need to address these issues.

I think the important thing is to carry on challenging societies views, thus changing the stigma attatched to rape victims. It will take time, but then we wouldn't NEED to say to every woman "we believe you," because they'd already know people were on their side. So, we need to carry on challenging these views, fighting as hard as we possibly can, yet we need to say to every woman who says they've been raped "We believe you." We need to stop the media dragging up women's histories as to why we shouldn't believe them, should they be in the midst of a case (however big or small) and find a way to encourage the media to represent rape and it's victims in a fair and responsible manner. No more shit from the Daily Mail. No more emails about how not to get raped. Challenge ideas on forums, facebook, wherever, where people find it acceptable to judge a victim.

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MitchiestInge · 09/07/2011 21:11

"I actually see MarySue's point..."

I have no idea what, if there is one, his wider point might be

DontCallMePeanut · 09/07/2011 21:14

Sorry, I meant wrt this

"Child-abusers often say 'if you tell the police, nobody will believe you and you will get in trouble.' Lets not do the same thing to rape victims. Better to say 'things aren't perfect, it's hard to get a case to court and then to conviction on lots of violent crimes - but once there the conviction rate for rape is 50-60%. People will believe you. You can do it, get the bastard."

But then, like I said. Whereas I see his point, we need to change societies attitudes, otherwise we'll just be going round in circles.

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MitchiestInge · 09/07/2011 21:25

yeah yeah, I know you meant that bit (tricky copy and paste manoeuvre on here, it kept selecting entire screen) but am puzzling what point is of all his posts generally

DontCallMePeanut · 09/07/2011 21:28

I don't know... He confuses me, too... I might go have a few drinks, come back to his posts, and then attempt to interpretate them... Grin

Sorry, MarySue...

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MarySueFTW · 09/07/2011 21:33

It may be funny to say I'm a man, but others reading this may not understand. Calling me a man means I am a liar, and a troll. I will report any further accusations and your entire posts will be deleted by mumsnet. So there.

SinicalSal · 09/07/2011 21:35

But, in RL, when it's someone close to you that asks for advice. You would try to protect them from further trauma. You don't pressure someone into a noble act, such as pressing charges, when you suspect it will harm them further.

btw I'm not suggesting you'd make the decision for them. But you'd be honest about your views, if asked.

MitchiestInge · 09/07/2011 21:36

I didn't mean it as a joke, I thought you said you were a man?

DontCallMePeanut · 09/07/2011 21:39

Ditto Mitchiest...

Also, man = liar and troll? Most definitely not! There's two men (I know of) regularly post in here, neither of which are liars or trolls...

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MarySueFTW · 09/07/2011 21:40

I'm all woman.

Sinical, what if that advice means a rapist goes free? As unfair as it is, don't rape victims have some responsibility to protect future potential victims? But yes, if it was a friend, I would back whatever they wanted to do, no pressure.

SinicalSal · 09/07/2011 21:40

My husband does have very hairy feet though.

  • Wait - Maybe I'm thinking of hobbits?
UsingMainlySpells · 09/07/2011 21:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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